Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[jollyburger]

A man convicted of stabbing a tourist at a Tim Horton’s coffee shop has been released from custody and will be living at a Vancouver halfway house, the Vancouver Police Department (VPD) says.

Police are warning the public that 30-year-old David Morin is a high risk to re-offend.

Morin was sentenced to a three-year prison term in June 2022 but has been granted parole.

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2024/0...nder-released/

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by whatnext

So no solutions then. Got it.

Pitch an actual solution, and you'll get my opinion on it; I haven't seen you give me any. Riverview's added a grand total of 11 beds since 2017.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

While the firefighters understandably feel overwhelmed, they didn’t say that clearing the tents had no effect. That’s just your speculation.

Two years ago, the CoV was bragging that fires were down because of the removal. Even then, some advocates were talking about misleading stats:

"I think that's a preposterious manipulation of statistics," said Hamish Ballantyne, community organizer with the Vancouver Area Network of Drug Users (VANDU). "If there's an outdoor fire, it's happening in an alley or a park outside the DTES where someone's been forced to take shelter and no one's out there to look out for them or call the fire department when their tent burns down..."

"... I've been tracking them down in alleys, some people are setting up tents behind dumpsters, many people had their tents thrown away."

Fast-forward 14 months, and it looks like Hamish was right. Same fires, different neighbourhoods.

[Zepfancouver]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2024/0...nder-released/

2 years in prison for attempted murder
No, no! Dont anybody tell me that wasn't attempted murder. If the victim would have died, it should be 1st degree murder, look at the video, he is thinking of killing him, he made his decision, then stabs him multiple times, premeditated attempted murder, minimum 15 years.

[Migrant_Coconut]

... I don't think you know what "premeditated" or "attempted" mean. By that logic, we should just scrap the various degrees and intents and just charge for "murder."

Now if you want to talk about how a high-risk reoffender can get away with three years and conditional parole with minimal oversight, you might have an argument.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Make it a “two strikes and you’re out”. Set two fires and you’re off to Riverview for as long as takes. The discredited Kennedy Stewart/Eby decrim approach has failed.

These are almost all accidents, not intentional.

You know how to search the internet for bad news, because you do it all the time. Search for 'Arson' and 'Vancouver', and you'll find plenty of stories of people being sent to prison for two, three or five years for setting fire to Masonic buildings, or restaurants, or their ex-wife's home.

Trudeau says the leading cause of fires in SROs are “smokers’ material related to drug-use.”. That's Capt. Matthew Trudeau, who speaks for Vancouver Fire Rescue Services, before you start some grand conspiracy theory.

There are at least six new SRO replacement buildings under construction, and more are promised. The sooner we can close down, and remove or repurpose the old ones, the sooner the problem will go away. In the meantime locking up tenants in Riverview (for how long?) because they fell asleep with a bong, or a cigarette, or had an unattended candle in a window and the wind got up, seems like overkill.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Changing City

There are at least six new SRO replacement buildings under construction, and more are promised. The sooner we can close down, and remove or repurpose the old ones, the sooner the problem will go away.

Newer buildings do not solve the problem of the majority of the individuals accidentally starting the fires are brain-fried or quite simply stupid. It just better contains the fire, smoke and water damage to fewer suites.

These are almost all accidents, not intentional.

Miss Mills, why did you set your stove on fire?

"I was cold."

But your room has baseboard heaters. why didn't you turn the heat up?

"Because that's an Epsilon listening device."

....So why did you set your stove on fire?

"I filled the oven with newspapers and thought I could use it as a fireplace."

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Newer buildings do not solve the problem of the majority of the individuals accidentally starting the fires are brain-fried or quite simply stupid. It just better contains the fire, smoke and water damage to fewer suites.


Miss Mills, why did you set your stove on fire?

"I was cold."

But your room has baseboard heaters. why didn't you turn the heat up?

"Because that's an Epsilon listening device."

....So why did you set your stove on fire?

"I filled the oven with newspapers and thought I could use it as a fireplace."

That's a great illustration of the potential issues we face (and have for decaded, as psychosis isn't new). And of course, because the low cost housing (SRO or more recent) is concentrated in the DTES, there will be many more people exhibiting psychosis living in SROs, (or homeless), than in the general population. Statistics Canada data suggests the prevelence of mental health diagnoses has doubled in only a very few years, so it's not surprising we're seeing more problems. (The one thing that's not increasing is drug disorders).

The new housing units are an improvement because they're more robustly built, more fireproof, and have support services onsite. For example, the new 58 West Hastings building, developed by the Chinatown Foundation, called Bob & Michael’s Place has 231 units, over half at welfare shelter rates, with a 50,000-square-foot healthcare facility that takes up most of the first and second floor. Vancouver Coastal Health’s second-generation program for the DTES, will consolidate 15-16 different clinics and have them under one roof.

It might be theoretically possible to return to the days when anybody deemed to be a risk to themselves or society was locked up indefinitely, loaded up with Chlorpromazine, and forgotten about. There would have to be a huge investment in new facilities and staffing for that to be possible, and there are plenty of people who would prefer it, (some posting here).

Generally, we've moved on from that approach, although some politicians have seen an opportunity to cut budgets, reduce programs and remove many of the aspects of 'care in the community' that was supposed to replace the ageing facilities like Riverview. Like inadequate funding to tackle homelessness, it's a false economy, as the costs then build up in other budgets like fire fighting and police calls.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

These are almost all accidents, not intentional.

You know how to search the internet for bad news, because you do it all the time. Search for 'Arson' and 'Vancouver', and you'll find plenty of stories of people being sent to prison for two, three or five years for setting fire to Masonic buildings, or restaurants, or their ex-wife's home.

Trudeau says the leading cause of fires in SROs are “smokers’ material related to drug-use.”. That's Capt. Matthew Trudeau, who speaks for Vancouver Fire Rescue Services, before you start some grand conspiracy theory.

There are at least six new SRO replacement buildings under construction, and more are promised. The sooner we can close down, and remove or repurpose the old ones, the sooner the problem will go away. In the meantime locking up tenants in Riverview (for how long?) because they fell asleep with a bong, or a cigarette, or had an unattended candle in a window and the wind got up, seems like overkill.

Conveniently glossing over the problem isn’t that older SROs aren’t fireproof it is the rampant drug use happening in them. As alluded to by others, many of these people have their brains fried by drug use. You can’t build your way out of that and they’ll never be able to safely live independently no matter how much of our money is thrown at the problem.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Did a little research into this story, and it seems wild.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/homicide-inves...-run-1.6788125



Seems the RCMP thinks a lot more happened that night far before the incident... Makes me wonder if the RCMP knows the driver and the cyclist had some interaction earlier in the night, and later when the driver saw the cyclist on the road he took his opportunity with deadly intent. If that was the sequence of events it would probably satisfy the requirements for 1st degree murder.

Meanwhile, this is what I meant, this is the kind of activity causing death that just lands you a "dangerous driving" conviction.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...jail-1.7021562

thanks for the info. Other than the basic news I really didn't know much about it despite knowing who the driver is. I saw some comments somewhere about it but I can't find it again, but someone said they read the police report or something which included some of or all of a long letter that the driver wrote and the commentor said it was quite disturbing.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I observed that clearing out the tents on Hastings has evidently done nothing to prevent fires overall. That's it. Take your leading questions somewhere else.

Is that statistical or anecdotal?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is that statistical or anecdotal?

See above.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

You're not wrong. Contrary to the narrative though, the people inclined to do so haven't disappeared - they've just moved to other neighbourhoods.

The total number fires will be less than last year if the current trend continues.

2023
2023 was the worst year with 4,309 cases (compared to 3,610 in 2022), and 2023 that was the year the tents were removed. However, need to note that Crab Park tent city was not cleared in 2023, and that the province started decriminalization of open drug use and small-amount possession. That definitely led to more fires everywhere.

2024
We are halfway through 2024 and so far we have 1,785 cases. If you double this. that would only give you about 3,570 cases (2022 number). With decriminalization of public drug use, as well as Crab Park tent city being cleaned up just recently, hopefully the number of fires can head downwards.

ABC is doing much better than their inept predecessors who did not give a hoot about the City going downhill, and that is for all to see. The current administrators are at least taking the right steps to improve the social ill situation that has been plaguing our city for far too long.

Statistics: See chart here
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...fires-24-hours

[Vin]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Conveniently glossing over the problem isn’t that older SROs aren’t fireproof it is the rampant drug use happening in them. As alluded to by others, many of these people have their brains fried by drug use. You can’t build your way out of that and they’ll never be able to safely live independently no matter how much of our money is thrown at the problem.

Forcing people to go cold turkey is the best solution.

[Migrant_Coconut]

When your preferred drug policy is the same as the Taliban's, it's time to reconsider that policy.

Originally Posted by Vin

- snip -

Making predictions based on January-May is worthless when most fires in BC (yes, city fires too) are in the summer months between June and August. We have no evidence to show that ABC is doing better or worse than the previous two administrations, only confirmation bias and wishful thinking.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

See above.

I don't consider VANDU to be a reputable source of anything.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Making predictions based on January-May is worthless when most fires in BC (yes, city fires too) are in the summer months between June and August. We have no evidence to show that ABC is doing better or worse than the previous two administrations, only confirmation bias and wishful thinking.

Vin posted real stats and that's a crap response. Weren't we told fires are set to keep warm because people are homeless and tentless? That's not going to happen in the summer as much. The start of the year is the coldest weather.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't consider VANDU to be a reputable source of anything.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Vin posted real stats and that's a crap response. Weren't we told fires are set to keep warm because people are homeless and tentless? That's not going to happen in the summer as much. The start of the year is the coldest weather.

Not saying they're reputable, I'm saying the City might be subject to selection bias. Ditto certain posters.

The sky doesn't turn Martian in February (yes, that's wildfires; point still stands). City Hall themselves say two-thirds of last year's city fires were caused by "smoker materials, such as lighters, matches, cigarettes, and pipes," and the only thing seasonal about that is the tendency for them to grow out of control when it's hotter and drier.

[SpongeG]

Vancouver is about to ban butane lighters that lock as they have been responsible for over 3000 fires in the last 16 months.

from CBC article

Vancouver to ban retail sale of lockable lighters over fire risk

[Zepfancouver]

Originally Posted by Vin

Forcing people to go cold turkey is the best solution.

Finally, someone speaking some sense.
I must carry a 'will and testament' on me at all times if when I'm not in a sane state of mind, which states, "If I am (become) a drug addict, I give consent (please force me) into a cold turkey treatment, I beg of you!, don't feed me (free) drugs as a treatment"

[jollyburger]

Caught 113 times...

Police say six people were arrested over the two evenings, one of whom, a 38-year-old Vancouver man walked out of a store with $2,600 in high-end athletic clothing still on the hangers.

“One of the individuals is related to 113 different theft files,” said Kalanj. “And they just keep coming back. So it’s like a revolving door. So we do our best, but we can’t catch them every time.”

Kalanj said the 38-year-old suspect was likely stealing the clothes to sell.

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2024/0...-at-metrotown/