[Moncton] Northwest/Magnetic Hill Developments

[monctonwatch]

JD Irving purchased the thrive property, if you do a little snooping the other properties are from what I can tell owned by the Carson family. From what I was told in the past with speaking to Thrive in the past as to what the hold up was on the development it was because of two factors, 1: the cost of putting the bridge at Wyse street, which Thrive(cordova) was hoping the city would flip the bill if they held out long enough, and secondly 2: the city was requesting close to half of the entire project for wetland/park, not as large of a portion of the thrive property(west side of project) but the other land owners had a larger proportion of their lands requested to be parkland (further east) which for obvious reasons they were holding out for a better deal.

[MonctonRad]

Vision Lands plan edges closer to reality: city
Vision Lands master plan continues to evolve with more details about housing, streets, parks and infrastructure
Author of the article:Alan Cochrane
Published Jul 31, 2024 • Last updated 18 hours ago • 2 minute read
https://tj.news/moncton-miramichi/vi...o-reality-city (paywall)

The city says developing the land is important because the city’s population is expected to grow by 35,000 people over the next 25 years.

Note, they are referring to growth of the city's population here. The CMAs growth will likely be double this, to over 250,000.

Development could begin in the next couple of years, but the infrastructure development will have to come first. One of the big steps will be construction of a collector road through the Vision Lands that connects at Louis J. Robichaud Boulevard, which is near the intersection of Frampton Lane and Mapleton Road.

It is as I predicted. The lynchpin for the development of the Vision Lands west will have to be the connector between LJR Blvd & Crowley Farm Road and Leopold Belliveau Blvd.

The city will be looking to the provincial and federal governments for funding assistance for infrastructure, with the promise of future tax revenue in exchange for initial investments.

Again as I predicted, none of this will happen until the city secures an agreement with the feds and the province to help pay for this basic infrastructure. This is not unreasonable, and mirrors the three level support being provided for the extension of Dieppe Blvd through to Dover Road. If the feds and province can support Dieppe, then I imagine Moncton should be able to expect similar treatment, especially since this basic work will be necessary for developers to begin construction to help deal with our housing crisis.

[MonctonRad]

The Vision Lands plan refers to the LJR Blvd extension as a major collector, and, will provide a crosstown route north of Wheeler Blvd, which is something the city has sorely lacked.

Just don't expect this "major collector" to be a wide 4-6 lane boulevard however.

This is what the city envisions:



A two lane street with centre turning lane and on street parking. This will essentially be a "Main Street" for the new "Uptown Centre" of Moncton North.

In addition, the LJR connector will be blessed with no less than four roundabouts (two major and two minor)

Screen Shot 2024-08-01 at 10.14.34 AM

I'm not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. In fact, I like the idea of Moncton have a new "uptown centre." If Dieppe can have both an uptown and a downtown, then why not Moncton too! I personally don't mind taking my time to get across town at a leisurely pace along city streets. If I want to get to Champlain Place in a hurry, I'll take Wheeler Blvd, where the average speed is 120 km/hr.

[MonctonRad]

Thought Experiment:

I was thinking the other day. The Vision Lands concept proposes a new uptown centre for the City of Moncton. This creates multiple growth nodes in the CMA, including uptown and downtown centres for both Moncton and Dieppe.

What if there were a metro LRT line connecting all these centres, and other important infrastructure such as the airport, universities, Magnetic Hill and the Casino?

Could this be done in a minimally invasive way?

By definition, an LRT can have multiple forms. It can run on the street (tram), or on a separate ROW, possibly even elevated. I have come up with an idea of a free running LRT, almost entirely separate from existing roadways, with some elevated segments, mostly running on existing greenways within the city.

Here is my plan:



It's not perfect by any means. It is not really convenient to either hospital (especially TMH), and avoids Mountain Road entirely. It is also not convenient to shopping centres (except Champlain Place), but does serve the airport, uptown Dieppe, downtown Dieppe, Champlain Place, downtown Moncton, both universities, the Vision Lands, Magnetic Hill and the Casino. There is half decent coverage of residential areas in northwest Moncton (if you don't mind a 10 minute walk to the station) as well as the main MID industrial park.

Thoughts???

Could LRT be something Moncton looks at in the next 50 years? Should Moncton & Dieppe start looking at land banking for a future ROW? Does anyone have any thoughts regarding alternate routing???

[MonctonPerson]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Thought Experiment:

I was thinking the other day. The Vision Lands concept proposes a new uptown centre for the City of Moncton. This creates multiple growth nodes in the CMA, including uptown and downtown centres for both Moncton and Dieppe.

What if there were a metro LRT line connecting all these centres, and other important infrastructure such as the airport, universities, Magnetic Hill and the Casino?

Could this be done in a minimally invasive way?

By definition, an LRT can have multiple forms. It can run on the street (tram), or on a separate ROW, possibly even elevated. I have come up with an idea of a free running LRT, almost entirely separate from existing roadways, with some elevated segments, mostly running on existing greenways within the city.

Here is my plan:



It's not perfect by any means. It is not really convenient to either hospital (especially TMH), and avoids Mountain Road entirely. It is also not convenient to shopping centres (except Champlain Place), but does serve the airport, uptown Dieppe, downtown Dieppe, Champlain Place, downtown Moncton, both universities, the Vision Lands, Magnetic Hill and the Casino. There is half decent coverage of residential areas in northwest Moncton (if you don't mind a 10 minute walk to the station) as well as the main MID industrial park.

Thoughts???

Could LRT be something Moncton looks at in the next 50 years? Should Moncton & Dieppe start looking at land banking for a future ROW? Does anyone have any thoughts regarding alternate routing???

It's an interesting idea, and I do wonder if someone somewhere is thinking about how to build more public transit here over the next few decades and what land/ROW may need to be protected now to pull it off.

My thoughts:
A route along Mountain Road would provide better service and minimize walking distances, which would be key to adoption. The city also seems to envision increasing density along Mountain Road in the future and the many parking lots and low density buildings seem to make it an easier stretch to redevelop. A route along Mountain might also be easier to pull off than building through several parks and marshes, which would put the system at risk during heavy rain/flooding.

I could see a crosstown route from MID going Killam-Connaught-Morton-Elmwood-Caledonia.

I think the Dieppe route might work along Gauvin, swinging up to Champlain at Pascal. That reduces the walking distance for higher density areas in its downtown, but keeps it off the main thoroughfare.

Another line could run south from Caledonia along Harrisville Boulevard and Dieppe Boulevard.

Obviously an LRT would need a depot/servicing site, so linking into the industrial parks offer the benefit of cutting down on people needing to drive, and access to those areas that offer enough space for a depot.

[MonctonRad]

It really depends on what your vision for an LRT system is. If you are thinking more of a street running tram system, then the way to go would be to place rails and overhead catenaries on major city streets. My vision of an LRT is generally separate from street traffic, and more closely resembles an elevated grade separated dedicated light rail line. I say elevated (and it would be where necessary), but, such a system can exist at grade as well where elevation is not necessary.

Your system resembles a bus, and would have more frequent stops. My system resembles a light rail system with more infrequent stops and actual stations. Both systems could in fact exist side by side.

[jonny golden]

As the population continues to increase, the traffic congestion will only get worse - we can already see it. At some point, it will make total sense for an LRT system.

One thing that I would love to see is the downtown CN railroad tracks incorporated so that they could be elevated. Even if the LRT system had to have a parallel track through downtown on a common elevated structure.

The rail tracks through downtown are atrocious, and if an LRT system ever happens, that would be the window of opportunity to deal with them.

One can only dream I know - money is always an issue with these types of things.

[josh_cat_eyes]

What if you had a spur that ran from the MID north station along the existing rail corridor into central Moncton. Have a crossing at millennium, one at the 4 plex, have the route follow beaverbrook street and then turn south to follow Vaughan Harvey as an elevated (or partially elevated) route. Have it finish at the downtown train station.

Instead of your model where the route goes right from the riverfront to the CN tracks, have the riverfront route curve around and end up at the train station. Have the western route start from there along the CN ROW.

[DyAm00394]

A new CTV article on Vision Lands: https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/western-...ward-1.6986757

The city's Long Range Policy Planning Team Manager hopes to have shovels in the ground in the next 3-5 years. He also said a number of things have to happen first before shovels can be put into the ground including:

- consolidating the western portion into the wider Vision Lands plan
- work with landowners and the public
- ask council to bring forward a re-zoning application
- confirm a cost-sharing agreement

And that he hopes to see financial support from both the provincial and federal government.

[Riberview]

step 1: have the CN main rail line go AROUND the city.

step 2: use the old CN infrastructure that runs through the city as the starting point for light rail or tram.

cost? hugely expensive. Lac Megantic bypass, 12.5km, required the purchase of 43 properties and was estimated to cost $133million in total. *edit. costs have increased. so far to $950mil...

CN can cut down on their cost by selling their current ROW through the city to the city.

bingo bango.

next, run spurs off the line parallel with Wheeler Blvd if you want, but the CN rail line goes alongside Berry Mills Rd so the north end could also be accessed that way.

There are spurs currently off the main line into the Dieppe Industrial Park, and Caledonia Industrial Park.. LTR could parallel those as soon as they are proper overpasses. I mean it is 2024 and we have level crossings in multiple locations across exceedingly busy highways. Kinda silly.

[jonny golden]

I mean it is 2024 and we have level crossings in multiple locations across exceedingly busy highways. Kinda silly.

The rail line through the city, especially downtown, has been an annoyance of mine for years. The "level crossings" are dreadful. What an improvement it would be if the tracks were somehow dealt with.

There have been discussions about the issue for years - route the tracks around the city, move them south along the river etc.

It would take major funding, and a serious appetite from the players involved in order to see anything happen.

I wonder what would cost more - Completely rerouting the tracks around the city, or elevating them at least through the main core of the city.

As great as it would be, I just can't see it happening in my lifetime. It's not a big enough issue, if it's even an issue at all.

[MonctonRad]

The rail line through downtown is a nuisance, no question, but, it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to relocate the line to the north of the city. This is very difficult to justify, and, there would still have to be rail access of some form into the various industrial parks around the area. There would still have to be a bunch of spur lines around the metro area allowing such access.

The CNR mainline through Moncton has one major benefit - the maintenance of a downtown VIA station in the city. Right now, with three passenger trains per week, the VIA station borders on irrelevance, but, I don't think it will be this way forever. VIA is replacing ALL of their rolling stock. I think the Ocean may eventually return to a daily schedule. In addition, I also honestly believe that we will eventually see the return of intercity rail in the Maritime region, especially with the eventual demise of internal combustion automobiles. While EVs will take over, I also expect a resurgence in passenger rail. In particular, if we don't have 2-3x daily trains on a SJ-Moncton-Truro-Halifax routing in 20 years time I will be shocked. There could also be a once daily north shore routing out of Moncton too, counterbalancing the daily Ocean service on the same route, allowing for same day return service.

So, I can foresee a time when there may be 8-10 passenger trains a day calling at the downtown VIA station, perhaps even more if there were ever to be local commuter rail to Sackville, Shediac and Petitcodiac/Salisbury. The downtown location is perfect, right next to the Avenir Centre, with nearby hotels and restaurants, and within walking distance of the downtown core. Some Canadian cities have lost their downtown stations (especially on the Prairies). Once gone, it is impossible to get this back. Moncton is fortunate in this regard.

Moncton is also fortunate in that the VIA station here allows for double duty as a Maritime Bus depot, and, as such, allows for interconnectivity that some cities can only dream of.

And, as some have pointed out, if Moncton were ever to develop a metropolitan LRT system, (in 50 years or so), there might be options to make one of the LRT stops at the VIA station. Such a stop would be one of the most important on the system, serving the VIA station itself, the Avenir Centre, and the downtown west end in general.

The VIA station therefore could be the intermodal focus for heavy passenger rail, local commuter rail, metropolitan LRT and intercity bus. Not many cities have such a multimodal downtown terminal. I know there are orders of magnitude of difference in the comparison, but, it sort of reminds me of Union Station in Toronto.........

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The rail line through downtown is a nuisance, no question, but, it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to relocate the line to the north of the city. This is very difficult to justify, and, there would still have to be rail access of some form into the various industrial parks around the area. There would still have to be a bunch of spur lines around the metro area allowing such access.

The CNR mainline through Moncton has one major benefit - the maintenance of a downtown VIA station in the city. Right now, with three passenger trains per week, the VIA station borders on irrelevance, but, I don't think it will be this way forever. VIA is replacing ALL of their rolling stock. I think the Ocean may eventually return to a daily schedule. In addition, I also honestly believe that we will eventually see the return of intercity rail in the Maritime region, especially with the eventual demise of internal combustion automobiles. While EVs will take over, I also expect a resurgence in passenger rail. In particular, if we don't have 2-3x daily trains on a SJ-Moncton-Truro-Halifax routing in 20 years time I will be shocked. There could also be a once daily north shore routing out of Moncton too, counterbalancing the daily Ocean service on the same route, allowing for same day return service.

So, I can foresee a time when there may be 8-10 passenger trains a day calling at the downtown VIA station, perhaps even more if there were ever to be local commuter rail to Sackville, Shediac and Petitcodiac/Salisbury. The downtown location is perfect, right next to the Avenir Centre, with nearby hotels and restaurants, and within walking distance of the downtown core. Some Canadian cities have lost their downtown stations (especially on the Prairies). Once gone, it is impossible to get this back. Moncton is fortunate in this regard.

Moncton is also fortunate in that the VIA station here allows for double duty as a Maritime Bus depot, and, as such, allows for interconnectivity that some cities can only dream of.

And, as some have pointed out, if Moncton were ever to develop a metropolitan LRT system, (in 50 years or so), there might be options to make one of the LRT stops at the VIA station. Such a stop would be one of the most important on the system, serving the VIA station itself, the Avenir Centre, and the downtown west end in general.

The VIA station therefore could be the intermodal focus for heavy passenger rail, local commuter rail, metropolitan LRT and intercity bus. Not many cities have such a multimodal downtown terminal. I know there are orders of magnitude of difference in the comparison, but, it sort of reminds me of Union Station in Toronto.........

Via's new rolling stock is just one piece of the puzzle for successful and sustainable rail service. Government needs to ensure the maintenance of the lines to allow reasonable speeds and to pass (and enforce) a law giving passenger trains priority over freight.

Amtrak has this right in the US although some rail companies do not always comply......

https://www.route-fifty.com/infrastr...20since%201973.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Via's new rolling stock is just one piece of the puzzle for successful and sustainable rail service. Government needs to ensure the maintenance of the lines to allow reasonable speeds and to pass (and enforce) a law giving passenger trains priority over freight.

Amtrak has this right in the US although some rail companies do not always comply......

https://www.route-fifty.com/infrastr...20since%201973.

The Bathurst sub needs to be completely rebuilt, but, for most of the main intercity routing in the Maritimes, the real game changer would be double tracking. This would go a long way towards mitigating any conflict with freight traffic.

Double tracking where appropriate, and longer and more frequent sidings. The main target areas would be Halifax-Truro, around Moncton from Sackville to Petitcodiac, and, up the KV to Hampton (assuming commuter rail might be entertained in SJ as well).

[reflist]

Looks like they are going to build a new road between the NBCC and Sportcheck. It would connect from Mountain Rd to the new shannex complex area.

[MonctonRad]

Good eye!!!

Almost two years ago, Mayor Dawn Arnold revealed this on one of her city council updates:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

From Mayor Dawn Arnold's summary of city council deliberations this evening:

This is for that last bit of undeveloped land in the Pinehurst neighbourhood, in behind NBCC and the Northwest Centre, where the new Shannex nursing home complex is being built. The rest of this land is slated for residential development.

The city wants to build a roundabout in behind NBCC to serve as a connector from Worthington and Ayer to Mountain Road. The development charge area is being proposed so that the cost of this connector will be born by the developer, and passed on to the lot purchasers who plan to build houses in the neighbourhood.



The connector will access Mountain Road between NBCC and the Northwest Centre.

mctnguy superimposed this on an aerial photo of the area:



A connector between Mountain Road, Ayer Ave & Worthington Ave to service the new subdivision being built in the last vacant land in the Pinehurst neighbourhood (including the new large Shannex development under construction). The connection will include a roundabout. Will the connector also have traffic lights at it's Mountain Road terminus???

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by monctonwatch

JD Irving purchased the thrive property, if you do a little snooping the other properties are from what I can tell owned by the Carson family. From what I was told in the past with speaking to Thrive in the past as to what the hold up was on the development it was because of two factors, 1: the cost of putting the bridge at Wyse street, which Thrive(cordova) was hoping the city would flip the bill if they held out long enough, and secondly 2: the city was requesting close to half of the entire project for wetland/park, not as large of a portion of the thrive property(west side of project) but the other land owners had a larger proportion of their lands requested to be parkland (further east) which for obvious reasons they were holding out for a better deal.

Here is an old map of the Vision Lands showing the land owners at that time:



With Irving buying out Thrive (Cordova), this gives them control of at least 30-35% of the Vision Lands (west), including the most important bits where the town centre is to be located, as well as the commercial lands adjacent to their Kent store and facing the TCH.

This will tremendously simplify negotiations between the city and the main landowners (Irving & Carson) regarding the "grand plan" for development of the site. I am tremendously encouraged. I think the city is finally getting it's ducks in a row.

There are three large projects in the offing for Moncton North that will completely change this section of the city:
1) - Vision Lands West
2) - MID West expansion
3) - Pinehurst neighbourhood expansion.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Good eye!!!

Almost two years ago, Mayor Dawn Arnold revealed this on one of her city council updates:

mctnguy superimposed this on an aerial photo of the area:

A connector between Mountain Road, Ayer Ave & Worthington Ave to service the new subdivision being built in the last vacant land in the Pinehurst neighbourhood (including the new large Shannex development under construction). The connection will include a roundabout. Will the connector also have traffic lights at it's Mountain Road terminus???

Where is the Shannex located in here? Why has this spot gone undeveloped for so long, along with the three substantial tracts across Wheeler south of Ryan? You'd think these would have filled in before things sprawled out further to the northwest. They seem totally level, mostly dry, and easy to access (Hildegard, Lady Russell, Freeman, Kingston).

Would a hypothetical crossing of Wheeler, linking Hildegard, Kingston, the new street perpendicular to Worthington, and a new street heading south to Lady Russell/the Westbrook area, make sense? Even a pedestrian crossing following Ryan across Wheeler would be viable with this infill.

[MonctonRad]

Shannex is adjacent to Wheeler, not too far south of the northbound Mountain Road off ramp.

I'm not sure why this section of Pinehurst was never developed. The rest of the neighbourhood is decades old.

My own preference would be to reopen Ryan by building an overpass across Wheeler. This would help to decompress inbound traffic on Mountain Road which can get backed up at the Wheeler/Mountain Road interchange. I doubt this will ever happen however.

[MonctonRad]

They are starting to cut through the curb on Mountain Road to make the connection with the new street leading into the Pinehurst neighbourhood. It's full steam ahead!