Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

"Heavy" and "light" rail refers to the size and mass of the train, not the frequency; the suggested Island Corridor passenger service to Courtenay would be "heavy rail" even if it only ran once a day, and the O-Train is "light rail." Go figure.

Light metro service on the Langford-Victoria stretch - maybe to Swartz Bay - may or may not be worth looking at... in around ten years. To Duncan? That'll make the Fast Ferries look good by comparison.

The Bombardier Talent train sets used on the O-train pilot where originally designed for the Deutsche Bahn and used on some regional intercity service. It is also used in S-bahn service that is more in line with a metro like service.

That is the advantage of that type of technology, you could use it for frequent service (say every 15 minutes) between Langford and Victoria and extend a few trains up to Duncan.

I think the general definition of "Heavy rail" is it meets the North American railway standards to operate on the same track and the same time with freight railways. WestCoast Express would be an example of this.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Except it's neither robust, nor a good option. It'd be a provincial charity case for a bunch of retiree train nuts.

If you're in a position to know how big the trees blocking the tracks were and how fast they could be removed, maybe offer to do it yourself? Because whichever government team gets sent out to clear it will need at least half a week... even more if the rail's been washed away too (which does happen).

Can you admit you are addicted to your car?

Originally Posted by Changing City

But Victoria itself isn't yet 100,000, and Langford isn't yet 50,000. Would much of the rest of Greater Victoria (which isn't yet 400,000) get any benefit from a rail service? (Rather than putting whatever a rail service would cost into improving the frequency and reliability of bus service - and moving away from diesel buses).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Regional_District
"The CRD is one of several regional districts in British Columbia and had an official population of 415,451 as of the Canada 2021 Census"


What this line would do for the district would be to start the transformation of the city much like what the Skytrain did for Vancouver.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

The Bombardier Talent train sets used on the O-train pilot where originally designed for the Deutsche Bahn and used on some regional intercity service. It is also used in S-bahn service that is more in line with a metro like service.

That is the advantage of that type of technology, you could use it for frequent service (say every 15 minutes) between Langford and Victoria and extend a few trains up to Duncan.

I think the general definition of "Heavy rail" is it meets the North American railway standards to operate on the same track and the same time with freight railways. WestCoast Express would be an example of this.

Due to the limited amount of freight on this line, using a lighter vehicle would be a better idea. It would be easy enough to plan for the freight movements. It is unlikely that any future companies will want to add rail service to their sites. If they did, then that can be examined at that time.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Regional_District
"The CRD is one of several regional districts in British Columbia and had an official population of 415,451 as of the Canada 2021 Census"

What this line would do for the district would be to start the transformation of the city much like what the Skytrain did for Vancouver.

Victoria Census Metropolitan Area had a 2021 population of 397,237. That's for an area of 695 sq. km. The Capital Regional District had a population of 415,455, but has an area of 2,338 sq. km. The difference between the two are 18,000 more people scattered over a large area, none of who would benefit much from an investment in rail.

If you're talking about Colwood to Victoria as a transit service, maybe it makes sense to use some form of train or LRT/tram, although I suspect better (and in future electrified) bus would still be more flexible. Beyond that the population density doesn't warrant the investment at all.

When SkyTrain opened there were already 1.38m people in Greater Vancouver (the Vancouver CMA).

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

How do you stop an addiction?
To stop a car addiction, you build a robust transit system that would give people options.

I'm totally on board with that principle. But it's not universally applicable, right? What's the cost / benefit for a rapid transit system in Horsefly BC?

I can see the potential of using the right of way for rapid transit to Langford, because the distance is shorter, the costs are lower and there's far more people that could be served by it. Less cost, more benefit. But going north of that would just be throwing money away.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Victoria Census Metropolitan Area had a 2021 population of 397,237. That's for an area of 695 sq. km. The Capital Regional District had a population of 415,455, but has an area of 2,338 sq. km. The difference between the two are 18,000 more people scattered over a large area, none of who would benefit much from an investment in rail.

If you're talking about Colwood to Victoria as a transit service, maybe it makes sense to use some form of train or LRT/tram, although I suspect better (and in future electrified) bus would still be more flexible. Beyond that the population density doesn't warrant the investment at all.

When SkyTrain opened there were already 1.38m people in Greater Vancouver (the Vancouver CMA).

OK, so what isthe population of the communities that would be served by the E&N to Duncan?
How many people were served by the added Evergreen Line Extension?

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm totally on board with that principle. But it's not universally applicable, right? What's the cost / benefit for a rapid transit system in Horsefly BC?

I can see the potential of using the right of way for rapid transit to Langford, because the distance is shorter, the costs are lower and there's far more people that could be served by it. Less cost, more benefit. But going north of that would just be throwing money away.

I see you like strawmen.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I see you like strawmen.

If you're referring to my comment about rapid transit in Horsefly, BC, that's not a "strawman", it's reductio ad absurdum. In this case, though, I'm not trying to prove that the principle of using rapid transit to reduce car dependency is false, merely that it is not always applicable to every situation.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Victoria Census Metropolitan Area had a 2021 population of 397,237. That's for an area of 695 sq. km. The Capital Regional District had a population of 415,455, but has an area of 2,338 sq. km. The difference between the two are 18,000 more people scattered over a large area, none of who would benefit much from an investment in rail.

If you're talking about Colwood to Victoria as a transit service, maybe it makes sense to use some form of train or LRT/tram, although I suspect better (and in future electrified) bus would still be more flexible. Beyond that the population density doesn't warrant the investment at all.

When SkyTrain opened there were already 1.38m people in Greater Vancouver (the Vancouver CMA).

No train service on day one of introduction has served an entire region particularly well. Even today if we look at Skytrain in Vancouver we are talking about a system that offers limited service south of the Fraser and no service on the North Shore. These systems are build out of many decades as funds become available.

The advantage of using a Talent like train is that it could be extended up to Duncan over time. When it was introduced to Ottawa in the pilot phase it was for a short distance, limited service but it served as basis for future expansion a decade later.

Skytrain in Metro Vancouver was also an incremental system. You start with a small stretch and extend it as and when needed.

Colwood to Victoria is a start. It is also a corridor that has Langford, the municipality with the largest degree of growth in the region.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Due to the limited amount of freight on this line, using a lighter vehicle would be a better idea. It would be easy enough to plan for the freight movements. It is unlikely that any future companies will want to add rail service to their sites. If they did, then that can be examined at that time.

When they did the O-train in Ottawa there one "commercial" customer on the line, the NRC. Provision was made to run freight trains over night should they be required. Not certain there were ever any but something similar could be done here. I would be surprised to see any freight movement on that stretch of line into Victoria.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Can you admit you are addicted to your car?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_Regional_District
"The CRD is one of several regional districts in British Columbia and had an official population of 415,451 as of the Canada 2021 Census"

What this line would do for the district would be to start the transformation of the city much like what the Skytrain did for Vancouver.

Joke's on you - don't even drive. Can YOU admit that you have no idea what value for money is?

The SkyTrain comes every two minutes. The Island Express would come every two hours. Hardly transformative. The $700-800 million potentially spent by the province on this would be better off going to an actual SkyTrain.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

OK, so what isthe population of the communities that would be served by the E&N to Duncan?
How many people were served by the added Evergreen Line Extension?

I see you like strawmen.

Duncan: 5,047
Cowichan Bay: 2,394
Cobble Hill: 5,019
Mill Bay: 7,200
Malahat: 76
Goldstream: 2,178

Burnaby: 249,197
Port Moody: 33,551
Coquitlam: 140,028
Port Coquitlam: 58,612, but let's exclude them since the SkyTrain doesn't go that far yet.

If you want your hometown to have a viable train, it needs at least 300k more people and a connection to a SkyTrain in Victoria. Until then, forget it.

No, aberdeen is correct. For 1,505 riders a day, Duncan might as well be Horsefly.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Well, if TransLink negotiated to buy the tracks (which I think you were suggesting) then they wouldn't still be freight tracks owned by CP. And presumably freight movements wouldn't be prioritized, as they are today. I'm not sure there's anything to study, beyond what has already been studied.

In my opinion, the tracks (whether owned or operated on) is one of the biggest barriers to developing the WCE. At some point this has to be on the table to discuss its future usage with CP.

Besides the study you linked to will be outdated once the Broadway and SLS extensions begin operating. And the reason why it will be outdated, is that those extensions will change the commuter patterns of the region quite significantly.

For example, Langley is now in the picture.

And furthermore residents of Coquitlam and Port Moody get an additional transfer station along with direct access to Broadway Street and UBC (when the time comes) which could lead to more passengers using Skytrain as opposed to the WCE when it comes to commuting to downtown Vancouver. But we won't know until a study is conducted after these extensions come online.

For the record, I don't like over-studying (due to it being a weird political circle-jerk) but because the metro region is changing commuter patterns so significantly in the near future, I think that developing the WCE will warrant a new study that particularly looks how to serve these updated communities.

Originally Posted by Changing City

CP use the tracks extensively for freight, and somewhat grudgingly allow TransLink to pay to slide five trains each way a day into the schedule. With ridership down, and finances squeezed, expansion doesn't seem a realistic prospect.

You are also, again, missing a huge part of my post that addresses this part of your response:

Originally Posted by scryer

Nothing will be done about the WCE without a case study. And the ownership of the tracks will be a HUGE talking point when the time comes.

And I assume that nothing will be done seriously about improving the WCE until after SLS and the Broadway extensions as those will take priority for the region, understandably so.

Obviously right now extending the WCE is a dumb idea as the SLS, Broadway, and UBC extensions are all much further into the production pipeline. I never said that developing the WCE should ever take priority at this time.

But the number one barrier to extending the WCE is this issue with using CP's tracks which has been my point this whole time. And it will have to be revisited once commuter patterns change. Now whether that solution comes in the form of Translink building their own tracks adjacent to CP's tracks or otherwise is a whole can of worms that we won't need to get into.

As long as the WCE continues to increase in usage gradually, I really don't see how we need to change it until the SLS and UBC extensions come online first. The development of the WCE is a far-future thing IMO.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by casper

The Bombardier Talent train sets used on the O-train pilot where originally designed for the Deutsche Bahn and used on some regional intercity service. It is also used in S-bahn service that is more in line with a metro like service.

That is the advantage of that type of technology, you could use it for frequent service (say every 15 minutes) between Langford and Victoria and extend a few trains up to Duncan.

I think the general definition of "Heavy rail" is it meets the North American railway standards to operate on the same track and the same time with freight railways. WestCoast Express would be an example of this.

If it's eight trains an hour, we should probably grade-separate most of the crossings in Langford and Victoria... which is going to drive the price tag up a bit.

Right, and that would make this one heavy rail.

Originally Posted by casper

Skytrain in Metro Vancouver was also an incremental system. You start with a small stretch and extend it as and when needed.

Colwood to Victoria is a start. It is also a corridor that has Langford, the municipality with the largest degree of growth in the region.

But SkyTrain also served a metro big enough to give it ~100k riders/day (yeah, even in '86). The province ran the numbers, and Langford-Victoria's only getting 656 riders. You'd need smaller, more frequent trains and about ten more years of population growth, and you can forget about going to Shawnigan Lake or beyond.

Originally Posted by scryer

Obviously right now extending the WCE is a dumb idea as the SLS, Broadway, and UBC extensions are all much further into the production pipeline. I never said that developing the WCE should ever take priority at this time.

But the number one barrier to extending the WCE is this issue with using CP's tracks which has been my point this whole time. And it will have to be revisited once commuter patterns change. Now whether that solution comes in the form of Translink building their own tracks adjacent to CP's tracks or otherwise is a whole can of worms that we won't need to get into.

As long as the WCE continues to increase in usage gradually, I really don't see how we need to change it until the SLS and UBC extensions come online first. The development of the WCE is a far-future thing IMO.

Even with the UBC and Langley extensions, we're still talking about billions of dollars - I doubt Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge would ever be ahead of Hastings, Lonsdale or Willingdon.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

OK, so what is the population of the communities that would be served by the E&N to Duncan?
How many people were served by the added Evergreen Line Extension

Migrant has dug out the population numbers in Vancouver Island. They're tiny compared to the Evergreen municipalities (and that was only 11km long).

Even before Evergreen opened (in December 2016) there were 12,560 commuting to Vancouver from Coquitlam. In comparison there were 35 commuting to Victoria from Duncan, and 20 more to Langford.

I'm not sure of the exact number of development units in the pipeline for Duncan, but it's probably a few less than the 63,079 dwelling units in the development review process or under construction in Coquitlam in August 2021.

[roger1818]

With all the discussion of the E&N, I thought these two videos recently posted by Matt G Trainz would be of interest. I gather from the first video, there are plans to preserve/redevelop the roundhouse, turning it into retail space.

• Video Link

• Video Link

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm totally on board with that principle. But it's not universally applicable, right? What's the cost / benefit for a rapid transit system in Horsefly BC?

I can see the potential of using the right of way for rapid transit to Langford, because the distance is shorter, the costs are lower and there's far more people that could be served by it. Less cost, more benefit. But going north of that would just be throwing money away.

Exactly. I would love for there to be more passenger rail (either local or longer distance) in BC. It's an interesting idea - but it's not always a practical one.

Originally Posted by scryer

In my opinion, the tracks (whether owned or operated on) is one of the biggest barriers to developing the WCE. At some point this has to be on the table to discuss its future usage with CP.

...and that's why I suspect in the long run the WCE will be shortened to run between Mission and Port Coquitlam (after the Skytrain has been extended to there). That rail section isn't as busy for freight as the Vancouver section.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Exactly. I would love for there to be more passenger rail (either local or longer distance) in BC. It's an interesting idea - but it's not always a practical one.

I don't know if we will see the Vancouver Island service or not. However given the existing track bed is already owned it makes the logistics of building out a service easier and the cost lower than some other options.

We are also talking about a service that will take a good five + years to build out and bring into service. Each year the population base increases.

Originally Posted by Sheba

...and that's why I suspect in the long run the WCE will be shortened to run between Mission and Port Coquitlam (after the Skytrain has been extended to there). That rail section isn't as busy for freight as the Vancouver section.

I think we are more likely to see all day Mission to Port Coquitlam service with some peak trains running into downtown Vancouver during rush hours. Potentially drop the associated bus service.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I mean, we've got the track bed for the Arbutus/False Creek train (which'd definitely get more riders than Langford-Victoria), and even then we're still arguing over whether that one's viable. Might be best to wait ten years and then run the numbers again.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by chowhou

#1 The highway is already built so any capital expenditure isn't really worth debating anymore

It's unfortunate, but in our car-centric society the burden of proof is on the rail proponents; anyone who opposes rail starts with a runner on 3rd base.

It's a lot easier to convince a lot of people who already drive that a highway-widening project will benefit them than trying to sell a half-billion dollar rail project and telling them to change their behaviour.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The SkyTrain comes every two minutes. The Island Express would come every two hours. Hardly transformative.

Even successful commuter rail projects don't always change development patterns. You can see this by looking at any number of cities and towns served by GO. The stations are all park and ride and are surrounded by vast moats of surface parking. Sure, the burden on the highway is eased but these places are still sprawling suburbs dominated by single occupancy vehicles. A commuter rail project doesn't magically transform every city it serves into a streetcar suburb.

Originally Posted by scryer

The development of the WCE is a far-future thing IMO.

Define "far-future". Not only are the Broadway and Langley extensions already in production, but Translink has identified a number of projects to tackle in the next 30 years including North Shore, Hastings, and Willingdon Skytrain. I think we could fast-forward to 2050 and we will still be discussing whether improving the WCE is worth it, but this time we'll be comparing that project's benefits against turning the BRT systems on King George Blvd, Scott Road, and Marine Drive/Way
into Skytrain lines.

Originally Posted by casper

I think we are more likely to see all day Mission to Port Coquitlam service with some peak trains running into downtown Vancouver during rush hours. Potentially drop the associated bus service.

I think running fewer trains into DT Vancouver is feasible from a track-sharing perspective, but it completely eliminates the value proposition for must riders. Skytrain from Poco to DT Vancouver is exceptionally slow compared to the WCE and involves transferring from WCE to Millennium to Expo. Unless Poco becomes a huge destination or employment centre for people living in Mission, Maple Ridge, and Pitt Meadows, I don't see why running more trains on that segment will be useful to the vast majority of riders.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I think running fewer trains into DT Vancouver is feasible from a track-sharing perspective, but it completely eliminates the value proposition for must riders. Skytrain from Poco to DT Vancouver is exceptionally slow compared to the WCE and involves transferring from WCE to Millennium to Expo. Unless Poco becomes a huge destination or employment centre for people living in Mission, Maple Ridge, and Pitt Meadows, I don't see why running more trains on that segment will be useful to the vast majority of riders.

I'd guess that such a change would probably require an analysis of current and potential riders. It is possible that there are commuters who do not use the WCE because their end destination is outside of downtown Vancouver; the determining factor would be whether the change would attract more riders than it would lose. A RapidBus route or routes that connects one or more WCE stations to downtown Surrey might help in that regard.

[casper]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

It's unfortunate, but in our car-centric society the burden of proof is on the rail proponents; anyone who opposes rail starts with a runner on 3rd base.

It's a lot easier to convince a lot of people who already drive that a highway-widening project will benefit them than trying to sell a half-billion dollar rail project and telling them to change their behaviour.



Even successful commuter rail projects don't always change development patterns. You can see this by looking at any number of cities and towns served by GO. The stations are all park and ride and are surrounded by vast moats of surface parking. Sure, the burden on the highway is eased but these places are still sprawling suburbs dominated by single occupancy vehicles. A commuter rail project doesn't magically transform every city it serves into a streetcar suburb.



Define "far-future". Not only are the Broadway and Langley extensions already in production, but Translink has identified a number of projects to tackle in the next 30 years including North Shore, Hastings, and Willingdon Skytrain. I think we could fast-forward to 2050 and we will still be discussing whether improving the WCE is worth it, but this time we'll be comparing that project's benefits against turning the BRT systems on King George Blvd, Scott Road, and Marine Drive/Way
into Skytrain lines.



I think running fewer trains into DT Vancouver is feasible from a track-sharing perspective, but it completely eliminates the value proposition for must riders. Skytrain from Poco to DT Vancouver is exceptionally slow compared to the WCE and involves transferring from WCE to Millennium to Expo. Unless Poco becomes a huge destination or employment centre for people living in Mission, Maple Ridge, and Pitt Meadows, I don't see why running more trains on that segment will be useful to the vast majority of riders.

The extension into Downtown Vancouver is the premium part of the service. The Mission, Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadown to Skytrain transfer turns it into a local regional service.

I think they would also need to look at adjusting the fare structure so it makes sense as a non-premium service for that part of the route.