The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by someone123

I agree but they're not necessarily humane operations, though arguably some are (I don't think it's cruel to have chickens that wander around outside and lay eggs as long as you take care of them well). I'm just responding to the idea that these people are idiots who are losing money or devastated economically because they put their farm in a floodplain. Or that these farms would have been fine if not for climate change.

From the perspective of chickens who live for 4 months this once in 30-year event is a once per 90 generation event. Fraser Valley chickens could easily have a sub-0.1% flood fatality rate.

I do think the correct solution will probably avoid all of these issues through some mix of adaptation in land use and infrastructure improvements. But the details around that seem unavailable. I think pointing fingers (they should or shouldn't have had some land use, the infrastructure was bad, people are climate denier fools) is premature right now. Let's wait for the flood waters to recede and for assessments of engineers before we pass our judgements...

Of course you have to question whether raising chickens in industrial coops or having fields for dairy cows is the best use of such productive soil. Those things could easily be done in more hilly terrain. Anyone who has been to Bavaria or Switzerland knows you can graze cows on just about any mountain!

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by lio45

You're right that it's prime land and I was about to say (someone beat me to it) that you WANT to have your cropland flooded from time to time. Brings new nutrients.

We're a long way from Egypt or the Indus valley where flooding is a good thing.

1. Canada has modern technology including irrigation, so all those blueberry farmers would much rather choose exactly how much water is given to the plants rather than having unpredictable floods decide it for them.
2. Canadian farmers all use fertilizers, so again, Canadian farmers would rather take a soil sample and decide what exactly needs to be added, and then do so rather than allowing unpredictable floods do it for them.
3. Canadian farmers don't leave a lot of ground cover (with the exception of hay fields), so the receding flood waters will strip all of the valuable top soil and the ability of the ground to soak up the water is hindered.
4. Modern farmers have significantly more permanent infrastructure in their fields that will be damaged by flooding including fence lines, irrigation pivots, barns, and roadways.

The reality is, technology has rendered nature's helping hand to farmers useless. Some good steady rain over many months, or some snow to help replenish ground water is all that Canadian farmers want. That isn't to say that some farmers aren't naïve to assume nature will always co-operate...

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Of course you have to question whether raising chickens in industrial coops or having fields for dairy cows is the best use of such productive soil.

It would take a lot more soil to raise chickens and cows free-range. I understand asking if factory farms are ethical and if the products are good for consumers' health, but the efficiency of those operations is unquestionably higher than traditional farming practices.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Those things could easily be done in more hilly terrain. Anyone who has been to Bavaria or Switzerland knows you can graze cows on just about any mountain!

But that's not enough to maximize meat and dairy yields, I'd expect those cows to be heavily supplemented with soybean meal imported from the US and Brazil grown on highly productive land.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by accord1999

But that's not enough to maximize meat and dairy yields, I'd expect those cows to be heavily supplemented with soybean meal imported from the US and Brazil grown on highly productive land.

I wager a lot of it is corn grown on fields in those areas. Most Germans I know look down on "corn on the cob" as they considered corn as livestock feed.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

It would take a lot more soil to raise chickens and cows free-range. I understand asking if factory farms are ethical and if the products are good for consumers' health, but the efficiency of those operations is unquestionably higher than traditional farming practices.

A factory farm doesn't have to be on a flat alluvial plain with rich soil though.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I wager a lot of it is corn grown on fields in those areas. Most Germans I know look down on "corn on the cob" as they considered corn as livestock feed.

There's a wide variety of farming in Europe. Parts of the former Soviet Union resemble Saskatchewan with large-scale farming operations.

However, a lot of the farming in Europe is done at a much smaller scale. There are farmers I met in Austria who made a living with 100 acres and 20-head of cattle. When I told them our family's farm is 2,500 acres and is small for Canada, their eyes got wide.

A dairy operation in Europe may involve a few cows that wander the gentle slopes of the alps and are brought in to the barn once per day for a milking. This is completely different from a Canadian dairy operation where hundreds of cows are milked twice daily. There is no other practical way to run an operation of this size than on a large flat surface with plenty of space for a barn, feed silos, milk storage, etc. Plenty of cows graze on hills in Canada, but they are beef cows in the Alberta foothills.

Originally Posted by whatnext

A factory farm doesn't have to be on a flat alluvial plain with rich soil though.

The barn doesn't have to be, but the feed sources do. It also helps to be in close proximity to processing facilities and your final customer. Where else in the lower mainland should chicken barns be located?

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I wager a lot of it is corn grown on fields in those areas. Most Germans I know look down on "corn on the cob" as they considered corn as livestock feed.

Corn not so much, but Europe imports 30 million tonnes of soybeans and soybean derived products. Even with the higher yields of the US or Brazil, that's close to 9 million hectares of land.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

There were tsunami warning signs all across coastal Vancouver island when I visited in 2017. Particularly around Tofino. When the big one hits there is likely to be a devastating tsunami. As for hurricanes and storm surges they were just hit with a historic hurricane level cyclone which broke records prior to all the flooding back in October. A cargo ship lost 109 containers in the ocean and was stranded at sea while fire crews battled a mining material blaze on board.

https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/b...-sea-1.5644146

You’re right, I disregarded the West side of Vancouver island, but that is a tiny fraction of BC’s population. The most populated parts of BC are protected by Vancouver Island.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I wager a lot of it is corn grown on fields in those areas. Most Germans I know look down on "corn on the cob" as they considered corn as livestock feed.

I remember when I was a kid and the relatives from Ireland came over. We had corn on the cob and they were horrified until they begrudgingly tried it. Europeans still view corn as we view maize.....strictly for animal feed.

In terms of climate change, our perspective would change overnight if there was a widespread corn crop failure. We often don't appreciate how fundamental corn is to our entire food production system. A corn crop failure would triple the price of nearly everything we eat overnight save fruits and vegetables.

From beef to chicken {and hence every dairy products from eggs to cheese to milk to cream, to butter} to lamb to dog food to cereals to vegetable oil to baked goods to canned goods.....................our entire food system relies on corn.

Even more than rice, corn is the world's most important food. God help us if there is a catastrophic corn crop failure.

[WarrenC12]

Corn subsidies forced it into everything. It doesn't have to be that way.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I remember when I was a kid and the relatives from Ireland came over. We had corn on the cob and they were horrified until they begrudgingly tried it. Europeans still view corn as we view maize.....strictly for animal feed.

I had no idea it was so alien to European palates.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by esquire

I had no idea it was so alien to European palates.

There's a reason for that:

Sweet corn occurs as a spontaneous mutation in field corn and was grown by several Native American tribes. The Iroquois gave the first recorded sweet corn (called 'Papoon') to European settlers in 1779. It soon became a popular food in the southern and central regions of the United States.

from Wikipedia

Obviously sweet corn is something that hasn't been adopted across the pond.

[Truenorth00]

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/vis...co2-emissions/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I had no idea it was so alien to European palates.

Yeah, the French similarly freak out when told by Quebecers that corn is on the menu for dinner. A corn roast (épluchette de blé d'Inde) is a typical outdoor meal in Quebec in the summer if you're at the cottage or in the backyard.

Of course it's not the same corn as what they generally have in Europe, as they soon find out.

[Acajack]

I remember a couple of decades ago, BC was also hit by huge floods. At the time, the public blame was put squarely on the province's massive logging industry. This year, though, it's barely been mentioned at all. It's all about climate change. Hmmm....

https://twitter.com/FocusMagVic/stat...51957429665792

[Truenorth00]

Interesting. What is their corn in Europe like?

Should be noted that roasted corn is quite common in South Asia too. You find street vendors selling it. Seems strange to me that Europe is effectively flanked by two continents who consume roasted corn, but it never caught on there.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I remember a couple of decades ago, BC was also hit by huge floods. At the time, the public blame was put squarely on the province's massive logging industry. This year, though, it's barely been mentioned at all. It's all about climate change. Hmmm....

https://twitter.com/FocusMagVic/stat...51957429665792

Climate denialism is not a good look. Stop.

This year's flood was caused by an atmospheric river. Those are getting more common and more severe as climate impacts progress. Attribution is a whole sub-field of climatology.

Also, events can have more than one causal factor. Building in an old floodplain or in areas that have been logged too much, ain't going to help you when the atmospheric river that was supposed to be once every half century, now comes every decade.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Climate denialism is not a good look. Stop.

This year's flood was caused by an atmospheric river. Those are getting more common and more severe as climate impacts progress. Attribution is a whole sub-field of climatology.

Also, events can have more than one causal factor. Building in an old floodplain or in areas that have been logged too much, ain't going to help you when the atmospheric river that was supposed to be once every half century, now comes every decade.

I am not a climate change denialist.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Interesting. What is their corn in Europe like?

Should be noted that roasted corn is quite common in South Asia too. You find street vendors selling it. Seems strange to me that Europe is effectively flanked by two continents who consume roasted corn, but it never caught on there.

I am not sure though I assume it looks like the less appetizing corn (smaller ugly kernels?) that is also used to feed animals here as well.