West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

BTW the word on the street is that the STO braintrust at pretty much all levels is against this plan.

OC Transpo for decades was so deeply married to buses and bus crappid transit that any talk of LRT was basically consdered treasonous within the agency.

When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When you are a bus transit company, every transit problem looks like something that can be solved with (check all that apply)

_ More buses
_ Fewer buses
_ Bigger buses
_ Smaller buses
_ Diesel buses
_ Hybrid buses
_ Lanes for buses
_ Highways for buses
_ Other, specify ________ buses

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You'd probably end up with the federal agency managing only the downtown loop (roughly following Confederation Boulevard) that has been oft-mentioned on this forum.

And a loop for which there is really almost no transit market.

[User Name]

I heard you’ll be allowed to smoke on the Quebec trains is that true?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Gatineau plan does appear a bit rushed to me, I agree.

The money is available now so they don't want to miss the boat (or train).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by jchilds72

I wonder if/how the proposed addition to the Chateau Laurier could affect the downtown terminus and if anyone has talked to them.

The terrasse, beside the hotel, beneath which the tracks used to be, are part of Major's Hill Park, so unless they are planning on building the extension on park land, it won't interfere.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Since the terminal station will need to be underground, it would make more sense to connect underground to the Rideau station, istm. The tunnel from the bridge under the park and the Chateau or 700 Sussex is going to be hugely expensive.

Why would it need to be underground? It would run along the old abandoned rail line, half way down the cliff at western edge of Major's Hill Park. It will be below the level of the Plaza Bridge, but that is hardly underground.

Now there are a bunch of tunnels under the Plaza Bridge that could be re-purposed. Below is one that connects the Chateau Laurier Hotel to the Government Conference Centre (formerly the Grand Trunk Railway Central Station and later Union Station).


CHRIS MIKULA / THE OTTAWA CITIZEN - April 2012

[lrt's friend]

Federal involvement would be limited to planning (with OC and STO participation) and funding proper interprovincial rail connections.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The terrasse, beside the hotel, beneath which the tracks used to be, are part of Major's Hill Park, so unless they are planning on building the extension on park land, it won't interfere.

Why would it need to be underground? It would run along the old abandoned rail line, half way down the cliff at western edge of Major's Hill Park. It will be below the level of the Plaza Bridge, but that is hardly underground.

Now there are a bunch of tunnels under the Plaza Bridge that could be re-purposed. Below is one that connects the Chateau Laurier Hotel to the Government Conference Centre (formerly the Grand Trunk Railway Central Station and later Union Station).

If you look at the space required for our modern LRT stations, there's no way you can shoehorn a station downtown without costing hundreds of millions of dollars. Even our above ground stations are taking up massive amounts of land, and there's no reason to think that something substandard could be done for such an important link.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by User Name

I heard you’ll be allowed to smoke on the Quebec trains is that true?

You have a strange fixation with cigarettes.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You have a strange fixation with cigarettes.

He's a troll. Ignore him.

[MarkR]

Originally Posted by roger1818

(snip)

Instead I think we should revert the Chaudière Bridge back to an LRT bridge (it was previously used for Street Cars) and then have it run to Bay and Spark Street (or possibly a bit further). This (when combined with a Rideau St. Station) would get most people within a 700m walk of their destination. Those who aren't, could then transfer to a train (or bus) that has already alighted a significant portion of its passengers.

Small clarification: that bridge was not built only for rail (as the Interprovincial Bridge initially was), but yes they did run streetcar tracks along it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by MarkR

Small clarification: that bridge was not built only for rail (as the Interprovincial Bridge initially was), but yes they did run streetcar tracks along it.

True. I didn’t intend to imply otherwise.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The terrasse, beside the hotel, beneath which the tracks used to be, are part of Major's Hill Park, so unless they are planning on building the extension on park land, it won't interfere.



Why would it need to be underground? It would run along the old abandoned rail line, half way down the cliff at western edge of Major's Hill Park. It will be below the level of the Plaza Bridge, but that is hardly underground.

Now there are a bunch of tunnels under the Plaza Bridge that could be re-purposed. Below is one that connects the Chateau Laurier Hotel to the Government Conference Centre (formerly the Grand Trunk Railway Central Station and later Union Station).


CHRIS MIKULA / THE OTTAWA CITIZEN - April 2012

I would find anything other than underground completely unacceptable. Ottawa spent a bomb burying it's downtown section. People are up in arms over the view of the Chateau from the north. And they're going to have trains and catenary wires running between the park and the canal? I don't think so. The line needs to pass under the park and, if a direct connection to Rideau Station is not possible then the access/egress point should be at Rideau and Sussex

[Aylmer]

I don’t see why it would be unacceptable. You wouldn’t see the trains nor the wires from the park or even Wellington. And from the canal and parliament, I think the sight of light rail trains running quietly along the right of way would look modern and elegant without being overly conspicuous. In any case, it’d look better than the current parking lot.

As for the wires, I’d suspect that Gatineau will opt for trains with batteries to allow for a few km’s without wires. Heritage areas such as Old Aylmer, in front of the History Museum, and Major’s Hill Cliff could operate without them if necessary. The technology is already in use and with the rapid advances in bus and tram batteries, it’ll be even cheaper and more available come 2028.

Ottawa didn’t bury its wires out of aesthetic considerations. It did it to avoid having to share the road and intersections which would have greatly reduced its capacity and reliability. If they had had an overground ROW like this, fully separated from traffic, leading straight downtown, they’d have taken it too.
EDIT: Case in point, no one’s losing sleep over the fact that there are catenaries visible from the UNESCO world heritage Rideau Canal.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I don’t see why it would be unacceptable. You wouldn’t see the trains nor the wires from the park or even Wellington. And from the canal and parliament, I think the sight of light rail trains running quietly along the right of way would look modern and elegant without being overly conspicuous. In any case, it’d look better than the current parking lot.

As for the wires, I’d suspect that Gatineau will opt for trains with batteries to allow for a few km’s without wires. Heritage areas such as Old Aylmer, in front of the History Museum, and Major’s Hill Cliff could operate without them if necessary. The technology is already in use and with the rapid advances in bus and tram batteries, it’ll be even cheaper and more available come 2028.

Ottawa didn’t bury its wires out of aesthetic considerations. It did it to avoid having to share the road and intersections which would have greatly reduced its capacity and reliability. If they had had an overground ROW like this, fully separated from traffic, leading straight downtown, they’d have taken it too.
EDIT: Case in point, no one’s losing sleep over the fact that there are catenaries visible from the UNESCO world heritage Rideau Canal.

I can only imagine that the NCC is.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I don’t see why it would be unacceptable. You wouldn’t see the trains nor the wires from the park or even Wellington. And from the canal and parliament, I think the sight of light rail trains running quietly along the right of way would look modern and elegant without being overly conspicuous. In any case, it’d look better than the current parking lot.

As for the wires, I’d suspect that Gatineau will opt for trains with batteries to allow for a few km’s without wires. Heritage areas such as Old Aylmer, in front of the History Museum, and Major’s Hill Cliff could operate without them if necessary. The technology is already in use and with the rapid advances in bus and tram batteries, it’ll be even cheaper and more available come 2028.

Ottawa didn’t bury its wires out of aesthetic considerations. It did it to avoid having to share the road and intersections which would have greatly reduced its capacity and reliability. If they had had an overground ROW like this, fully separated from traffic, leading straight downtown, they’d have taken it too.
EDIT: Case in point, no one’s losing sleep over the fact that there are catenaries visible from the UNESCO world heritage Rideau Canal.

I agree 100% (you took the words out of my mouth). IMHO, tracks would be better than the current underutilized, unnamed, gravel road half way down the cliff. This is especially true given the Chateau's history as a railway hotel. Even for those who disagree, the road is tucked out of the way and most vantage points don't show it. I did find the picture below though (its the road to the left of the path).


This photo from the Fairmont Chateau Laurier is courtesy of TripAdvisor

[roger1818]

I found an "Ottawa past & present" page of "Alexandra Bridge - Streetcars, Rails & Locks" which is really cool.

http://www.pastottawa.com/tag/alexandra-bridge/346/

Further down on the same page is this photograph showing the approach to the Alexandra bridge taken from the former Nepean Point Footbridge (which looks like it was where the new one is being built). I wonder how difficult it would be to rebuild that rail bridge in the foreground. Obviously they would only need double track now. It looks like the lower road goes under the tracks to share the western cantilever with the street cars.


From Library and Archive's Canada - 1938

[MarkR]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I found an "Ottawa past & present" page of "Alexandra Bridge - Streetcars, Rails & Locks" which is really cool.

http://www.pastottawa.com/tag/alexandra-bridge/346/

Further down on the same page is this photograph showing the approach to the Alexandra bridge taken from the former Nepean Point Footbridge (which looks like it was where the new one is being built). I wonder how difficult it would be to rebuild that rail bridge in the foreground. Obviously they would only need double track now. It looks like the lower road goes under the tracks to share the western cantilever with the street cars.


From Library and Archive's Canada - 1938

Indeed it did. A similar photo on the Lost Ottawa Facebook page garnered comments along the lines of "every now and then a bus or long truck would get stuck in that sharp bend...".

I remain impressed (not always in a good way) at how thoroughly any vestiges of that road and rail set-up were completely removed. Show the above photo to people who weren't around when it looked like that and they are absolutely amazed.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by MarkR

Indeed it did. A similar photo on the Lost Ottawa Facebook page garnered comments along the lines of "every now and then a bus or long truck would get stuck in that sharp bend...".

I remain impressed (not always in a good way) at how thoroughly any vestiges of that road and rail set-up were completely removed. Show the above photo to people who weren't around when it looked like that and they are absolutely amazed.

Agreed. I wasn’t around back then so I was certainly a bit surprised. I knew the Alexandra Bridge was originally a rail bridge but I didn’t know until just recently that it was actually built with the cantilevered sides for the street cars (they are usually added later).

Some questions for those who might know:

1. Did the street cars share the bridge with pedestrians and carts/vehicles from day 1?
2. Did the street cars cross the CPR line (in the middle) via a diamond or were they grade separated?

EDIT: Found a picture of the 3 tracks (1 is mostly obscured by the hill) entering the terminal building beside the Chateau.


From Pinterest. Unknown original source. 1912

[lrt's friend]

The Hull Electric streetcars had to cross the CPR rail line somewhere near the Chateau terminus. There was no grade separation.


As far as I know, streetcars and other traffic always shared the road on the Interprovincial Bridge until Hull Electric service ended on the bridge in 1946. I have never seen a picture showing that the bridge was reserved for rail service only.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

EDIT: Case in point, no one’s losing sleep over the fact that there are catenaries visible from the UNESCO world heritage Rideau Canal.

I'm sure some community association or another is.