Is Ottawa the City that Fun Forgot?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

It would be nice if the City had a group dedicated to trying these sorts of ideas on a pilot basis.

LOL. You expect Ottawa to allow pro-urban ideas? Come on now
...

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by phil235

I don’t think I disagree with a single one of these suggestions. And several of them would be very easy to do. It would be nice if the City had a group dedicated to trying these sorts of ideas on a pilot basis.

Appointing people to groups and boards to make the city more fun is quite literally half the jokes in this thread.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Appointing people to groups and boards to make the city more fun is quite literally half the jokes in this thread.

The irony of appointing a government committee for spontaneous fun is apparently missed by some.

Like people who advocate for a regulated free market. Um....

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by thewave46

The irony of appointing a government committee for spontaneous fun is apparently missed by some.

Like people who advocate for a regulated free market. Um....

Spontaneous fun like a structured new years eve event

[phil235]

Originally Posted by thewave46

The irony of appointing a government committee for spontaneous fun is apparently missed by some.

Like people who advocate for a regulated free market. Um....

Well, I’d first point out that the post that I was responding to was about pedestrianized areas and town squares and other physical changes to public space. I suppose you would expect those things to pop up spontaneously? In any event, I’d love to hear these examples of spontaneous fun occurring in other cities where the municipal government played no role. What is Ottawa doing differently from other cities that it shouldn’t?

Also, there is literally no such thing as an unregulated market in Canada. It’s never an issue of regulated or not, it’s a question of degree. I’m unclear on your issue with people who advocate for a “regulated free market”, whoever they may be.

I suppose it’s more enlightened to generalize about the “character” of the million-plus people who live here?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

LOL. You expect Ottawa to allow pro-urban ideas? Come on now
...

Fair enough. I was thinking about something along the lines of a night mayor like lots of other cities have (including fun ones).

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by phil235

Well, I’d first point out that the post that I was responding to was about pedestrianized areas and town squares and other physical changes to public space. I suppose you would expect those things to pop up spontaneously? In any event, I’d love to hear these examples of spontaneous fun occurring in other cities where the municipal government played no role. What is Ottawa doing differently from other cities that it shouldn’t, in your opinion?

Also, there is literally no such thing as an unregulated market in Canada. It’s not an either or issue, it’s a question of degree. I’m unclear on your issue with people who advocate for a regulated free market.

I think we're kind of talking past each other, to be honest. I'm talking about 'fun'. You're talking about built form. The two aren't necessarily related. A city can have a great built form, but not be fun. Or it can be dreck in built form and be lots of fun (Las Vegas). Government can encourage built form, but the mentality of the locals sets the tone for fun. No committee can change that.

My somewhat flippant comment aside, I don't think Ottawa should go that route of messy fun. It isn't the city's nature. It does managed fun, because that's what the locals want. A once-a-year Canada Day party is fine. Ottawa should be Ottawa.

My larger point is that 'fun' in the messy, unkempt, 'go out and paint the town red with your buddies' isn't compatible with the idea of a government committee.

Las Vegas would be the premier example. Not the corporatized example of today, but the one of yore. It was literally a place where one could overcome the restrictions on gambling (and prostitution) elsewhere due to the restrictive values of the time. It drew in the unsavoury elements (i.e. the mob), because that's the only group who'd be associated with such vice. Naturally, that become part of the city's lore and when companies saw the mob making money hand over fist, they wanted in. It was the absence of government restriction that provided that opportunity and drew in all the characters associated with it. It's what people think of when they think 'fun city'.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Fair enough. I was thinking about something along the lines of a night mayor like lots of other cities have (including fun ones).

That's not a bad idea actually....

[phil235]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I think we're kind of talking past each other, to be honest. I'm talking about 'fun'. You're talking about built form. The two aren't necessarily related. A city can have a great built form, but not be fun. Or it can be dreck in built form and be lots of fun (Las Vegas). Government can encourage built form, but the mentality of the locals sets the tone for fun. No committee can change that.

My somewhat flippant comment aside, I don't think Ottawa should go that route of messy fun. It isn't the city's nature. It does managed fun, because that's what the locals want. A once-a-year Canada Day party is fine. Ottawa should be Ottawa.

My larger point is that 'fun' in the messy, unkempt, 'go out and paint the town red with your buddies' isn't compatible with the idea of a government committee.

Las Vegas would be the premier example. Not the corporatized example of today, but the one of yore. It was literally a place where one could overcome the restrictions on gambling (and prostitution) elsewhere due to the restrictive values of the time. It drew in the unsavoury elements (i.e. the mob), because that's the only group who'd be associated with such vice. Naturally, that become part of the city's lore and when companies saw the mob making money hand over fist, they wanted in. It was the absence of government restriction that provided that opportunity and drew in all the characters associated with it. It's what people think of when they think 'fun city'.

Ok, fair enough. Vegas is obviously an extreme example, and I’d fully agree that there isn’t much point trying to go that route in Ottawa (or anywhere else that much). Though even with Vegas, the fun that occurs there is largely a result of decisions made by senior levels of government (often to get out of the way).

But I actually think that built form is a pretty key point. There’s the part that the City actively controls (creating public spaces, relaxing bylaws, designating entertainment districts etc.) and the part they don’t (like state of the local real estate market and the availability of big spaces in old buildings at cheap rents). An area like the Lower East Side in New York used to be great and full of dive bars etc. for the kind of fun you are talking about, but with property values skyrocketing, it’s not really that kind of place anymore. St. Laurent in Montreal is following a similar trajectory.

Ottawa doesn’t have a lot of areas like that, and no committee is going to change that. But it would help to have advocate in government who have a mandate to promote events and entertainment. Or to do targeted advertising (a la Vegas)That could also be by relaxing noise bylaws, making permits easier to get, or providing a bit of seed money to organizers. Maybe the city preserves old industrial or retail buildings for the purpose. Point being that there’s usually more to “spontaneous fun” than meets the eye. I think a group or night mayor or whatever you want to call it could be useful in making things work.

[Truenorth00]

Yep. Ottawa doesn't actually have public spaces conducive to spontaneous fun. Lotsa parks for the spandex parade. But for a coffee on the townsquare? Not so much. That form of fun, we expect you to enjoy with a car driven to a Starbucks.

I'm for whatever organization or authority that can facilitate this.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yep. Ottawa doesn't actually have public spaces conducive to spontaneous fun. Lotsa parks for the spandex parade. But for a coffee on the townsquare? Not so much. That form of fun, we expect you to enjoy with a car driven to a Starbucks.

I'm for whatever organization or authority that can facilitate this.

Over two decades ago when the Chambers building emerged from redevelopment, there was a cafe on the ground floor. It had a sizeable patio on Elgin with great views of the War Memorial and the NAC. For some reason it was short-lived, only to be replaced with street-dead office space for years. Recently though, the Glebe's Little Victories Coffee Roasters (a name appropriate for this location) is supposed to open a branch in its place. I wish them all the luck and success possible, and hopefully attract another street-active tenant next door. If this was France, this location would have competing cafes with no shortage of patrons.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Over two decades ago when the Chambers building emerged from redevelopment, there was a cafe on the ground floor. It had a sizeable patio on Elgin with great views of the War Memorial and the NAC. For some reason it was short-lived, only to be replaced with street-dead office space for years. Recently though, the Glebe's Little Victories Coffee Roasters (a name appropriate for this location) is supposed to open a branch in its place. I wish them all the luck and success possible, and hopefully attract another street-active tenant next door. If this was France, this location would have competing cafes with no shortage of patrons.

My short time in Ottawa, I always thought that Elgin should have been a pedestrian mall.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Over two decades ago when the Chambers building emerged from redevelopment, there was a cafe on the ground floor. It had a sizeable patio on Elgin with great views of the War Memorial and the NAC. For some reason it was short-lived, only to be replaced with street-dead office space for years. Recently though, the Glebe's Little Victories Coffee Roasters (a name appropriate for this location) is supposed to open a branch in its place. I wish them all the luck and success possible, and hopefully attract another street-active tenant next door. If this was France, this location would have competing cafes with no shortage of patrons.

There is zero reason that a cafe can't work there. Especially one that serves Suzy Q donuts.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

My short time in Ottawa, I always thought that Elgin should have been a pedestrian mall.

Oh my god. Yes. I can't believe they rebuilt the whole street and still have on-street parking.

At minimum, make it a Woonerf and they could just open and close it to traffic as needed. It's only 1.5 km from Catherine to the War Memorial. Zero reason to have cars there.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Over two decades ago when the Chambers building emerged from redevelopment, there was a cafe on the ground floor. It had a sizeable patio on Elgin with great views of the War Memorial and the NAC. For some reason it was short-lived, only to be replaced with street-dead office space for years. Recently though, the Glebe's Little Victories Coffee Roasters (a name appropriate for this location) is supposed to open a branch in its place. I wish them all the luck and success possible, and hopefully attract another street-active tenant next door. If this was France, this location would have competing cafes with no shortage of patrons.

Little Victories looks ready to open in this new location. I've walked by a bunch of times in the last few months. They've done a good job with the reno, it looks good.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Oh my god. Yes. I can't believe they rebuilt the whole street and still have on-street parking.

At minimum, make it a Woonerf and they could just open and close it to traffic as needed. It's only 1.5 km from Catherine to the War Memorial. Zero reason to have cars there.

IIRC, the business owners along the street, who actually have skin in the game, think differently.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

IIRC, the business owners along the street, who actually have skin in the game, think differently.

A story that is repeated across every single place this battle is fought. Then, the cars are removed, pedestrian traffic picks up and the same business owners change their tune.

In Ottawa's case, I think how bad Sparks is has kinda given pedestrianization a bad rap. Gonna have to start with the Market first. When the Elgin businesses lose business to a pedestrian market, they'll change their tune.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

My short time in Ottawa, I always thought that Elgin should have been a pedestrian mall.

Hells to the no.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

A story that is repeated across every single place this battle is fought. Then, the cars are removed, pedestrian traffic picks up and the same business owners change their tune.

In Ottawa's case, I think how bad Sparks is has kinda given pedestrianization a bad rap. Gonna have to start with the Market first. When the Elgin businesses lose business to a pedestrian market, they'll change their tune.

Well it does vary. Clarence street, the actual market and parts of York street are a no brainer. Elgin is a different story for a few reasons. It's a significant street so completely closing would impact traffic and other streets. Parking is more debatable but ironically the relative ease of parking there on the weekend means it is used by patrons fairly regularly. The market is so busy it's not like the loss of 15 spots would make much difference or anyone expects to pull up to a furniture store and park in front.

[silvergate]

I guess it all depends on your definition of fun, but many "fun" places around the world are hubs for arts and culture.

I think Ottawa actually has a pretty solid foundation to turn into a fun city. Government jobs + the professional services jobs that inevitably follow mean we have a lot of people with disposable income.
What we have in limited quantities is good places to spend that money, and more and more it's going into housing.
The housing market in Canada is punishing. Home prices and rents are high in most major cities now. This reduces people's ability to take risks. The risk takers - entrepreneurs, artists, musicians, are the people who could bring the fun.

How do we solve it? Well if the root of the problem is unaffordable housing, then the fix is cheaper housing. We've already seen the private sector fail at this. The only group that could build affordable housing at scale is government. Public housing available to all, a true safety net, is one way we can encourage risk takers to do their thing.

If the feds wanted to try their hand at public housing again, or at least contribute, I think Tunney's presents a wonderful opportunity to mix public and private housing developments.