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View Poll Results: Monarchy - Keep or Ditch?
Keep 149 52.28%
Ditch 136 47.72%
Voters: 285. You may not vote on this poll

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  #261  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2011, 6:58 AM
habfanman habfanman is offline
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Originally Posted by Overground View Post
Could you please explain how it's a better than constitutional monarchy as is used in Canada? If you can please use facts.

Canada's top executive and elected government head are two different people. Our head of state/Sovereign holds the power but doesn't use it. The elected gov't uses the power but doesn't hold it.

Canada's head of state is based in Canada.
If you think that birthright- what family you're born into- is the way to 'chose' your head of state, pick monarchy.

If you think that catholics, muslims, hindus, atheists, agnostics... anyone but the head of the Church of England... should be excluded from being your potential head of state, pick monarchy.

If you think that any and all Canadians... because they were not born into the 'proper family', can never, ever aspire to be the head of state of their own country... pick monarchy.

If you think that males should be preferred over females, pick monarchy.

If you weren't embarrassed over the fact that Kate was not allowed to make any public statements during the tour of Canada- reduced to arm candy- and you can somehow rationalize this to your daughters, sisters, whomsoever.. pick monarchy.

C'mon Overground, please defend all of these positions.
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  #262  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2011, 2:21 PM
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I'm a fan of government systems that work. We have one right now, and so I'm not in a big hurry to change it because you think that it's unfair. The risk of change is not worth any of the small problems that do exist.
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  #263  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2011, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by habfanman View Post
If you think that birthright- what family you're born into- is the way to 'chose' your head of state, pick monarchy.

If you think that catholics, muslims, hindus, atheists, agnostics... anyone but the head of the Church of England... should be excluded from being your potential head of state, pick monarchy.

If you think that any and all Canadians... because they were not born into the 'proper family', can never, ever aspire to be the head of state of their own country... pick monarchy.

If you think that males should be preferred over females, pick monarchy.

If you weren't embarrassed over the fact that Kate was not allowed to make any public statements during the tour of Canada- reduced to arm candy- and you can somehow rationalize this to your daughters, sisters, whomsoever.. pick monarchy.

C'mon Overground, please defend all of these positions.
Except for the first and third points, these can all be easily changed while retaining the current monarchy. The UK is trying to get all commonwealth realms to eliminate male preference. And Barack Obama's wife rarely speaks, while few people even know what Laureen Harper looks like. Politics is simply a male-dominated profession, so the problem isn't just the monarchy.

The church of England should be disestablished. Elected monarchies exist and we could probably adopt one more easily than changing far more things for a republic system.
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  #264  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2011, 7:55 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Except for the first and third points, these can all be easily changed while retaining the current monarchy. The UK is trying to get all commonwealth realms to eliminate male preference. And Barack Obama's wife rarely speaks, while few people even know what Laureen Harper looks like. Politics is simply a male-dominated profession, so the problem isn't just the monarchy.

The church of England should be disestablished. Elected monarchies exist and we could probably adopt one more easily than changing far more things for a republic system.
But that's just it then isn't it Vid? If you have no problem with the first point then.. who cares about the rest? If you think that it's OK to be ruled by some ancient notion of blood superiority, then the rest is just pfft..

It never ceases to amaze me that pro-Monarchists will excuse every single affront to all that most people in Canada will hold dear in their day to day lives: equality of opportunity, equality of sexes, ability over inherited 'rights'.. all the shit that we would rail against if it were to apply to us in the workplace, home, public life.. Yet when all of this ancient shite manifests itself in our current monarchy... Ooooooh! It's THE MONARCHY! They're special, they're an exception. We worship them.

Fuck that shit. I hope that we will someday distance ourselves from this cult, especially now that it has become nothing more than a eTalk curiosity.
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  #265  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2011, 8:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
I'm a fan of government systems that work. We have one right now, and so I'm not in a big hurry to change it because you think that it's unfair. The risk of change is not worth any of the small problems that do exist.
I wonder where a guy like you would have stood in the flag debate of the early 60's?

The old flag worked fine. A new flag would cost money. There were few problems associated with keeping the old flag. The risk of establishing a new flag outweigh the benefits of keeping the old flag. Why bother?

Make a case for establishing a new flag without contradicting yourself as to why we should retain the monarchy.

Unless, of course, you think that we should have retained the old flag.
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  #266  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2011, 8:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Overground View Post
Could you please explain how it's a better than constitutional monarchy as is used in Canada? If you can please use facts.

Canada's top executive and elected government head are two different people. Our head of state/Sovereign holds the power but doesn't use it. The elected gov't uses the power but doesn't hold it.

Canada's head of state is based in Canada.
Overground! Where are you man? As one of the most voiciferous defenders of the Splendour of Our Chosen Ones.. you're strangely silent. Dusting your Diana commerative plates and polishing your Queen Mum collector spoons are you?
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  #267  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2011, 12:23 PM
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I wonder where a guy like you would have stood in the flag debate of the early 60's?
How is that even relevant...oh, that's right, it's not. I'm not a monarchist, but I don't see a reason to risk tearing one of the most successfully governed countries apart whilst spending billions of dollars just because something doesn't feel right. I guess that makes me a monarchist by default.
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  #268  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2011, 2:03 PM
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This is turning into an epic troll thread.
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  #269  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2011, 5:11 PM
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Originally Posted by habfanman View Post
Overground! Where are you man? As one of the most voiciferous defenders of the Splendour of Our Chosen Ones.. you're strangely silent. Dusting your Diana commerative plates and polishing your Queen Mum collector spoons are you?

You are hardly worthy of a response, especially when you lower yourself to character attacks and stereotypes. Spoons...Diana? Oh man...really? Oh dear, I rest my case. You try to debate, if you can call it that, from an emotional angle habfanman and that's really not helping your argument.

And if you must know, I've been in the process of moving the past two weeks and had to wait for my internet to be hooked up and deal with the other horrible stresses that go with moving.
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  #270  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2011, 8:41 PM
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And if you must know, I've been in the process of moving the past two weeks and had to wait for my internet to be hooked up and deal with the other horrible stresses that go with moving.
I too know the stress of misplacing the box full of Diana spoons.
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  #271  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by habfanman View Post
It never ceases to amaze me that pro-Monarchists will excuse every single affront to all that most people in Canada will hold dear in their day to day lives: equality of opportunity, equality of sexes, ability over inherited 'rights'.. all the shit that we would rail against if it were to apply to us in the workplace, home, public life.. Yet when all of this ancient shite manifests itself in our current monarchy... Ooooooh! It's THE MONARCHY! They're special, they're an exception. We worship them.
Monarchic countries are typically the ones with the most individual freedom. That one sacrifice allows us to have that freedom. The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, are all monarchies, and all have more freedoms than almost all republics.

Not that a Canadian republic would be less free, but I don't really see any particular issue with the monarchy being hereditary. In fact, I view it more as a burden on their family than as a burden on us. The head of state in a republic system is often somewhat hereditary or at least confined to a particular class (many American presidents are closely related to the others, or were part of the same social circles) so aside from the charade of "anyone can become the president" (which is really only true for about 20 people per century) and hardly a goal worth fighting for when we have so many other serious issues in this country.

Unless you specifically want to be the head of state for Canada (and in that case, I'd rather you not be as people who pine for that position often seem to become dictators), I don't see any real downside to retaining some form of constitutional monarchy.

I really don't give a shit about the monarchy or their personal lives. I just like the stability of the system, and what we've achieved under it.
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  #272  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 2:37 AM
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For the record I think we should have kept our partial Union Jack flag. I still fly it next to the red maple leaf.
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  #273  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Monarchic countries are typically the ones with the most individual freedom. That one sacrifice allows us to have that freedom. The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, are all monarchies, and all have more freedoms than almost all republics.

Not that a Canadian republic would be less free, but I don't really see any particular issue with the monarchy being hereditary. In fact, I view it more as a burden on their family than as a burden on us. The head of state in a republic system is often somewhat hereditary or at least confined to a particular class (many American presidents are closely related to the others, or were part of the same social circles) so aside from the charade of "anyone can become the president" (which is really only true for about 20 people per century) and hardly a goal worth fighting for when we have so many other serious issues in this country.

Unless you specifically want to be the head of state for Canada (and in that case, I'd rather you not be as people who pine for that position often seem to become dictators), I don't see any real downside to retaining some form of constitutional monarchy.

I really don't give a shit about the monarchy or their personal lives. I just like the stability of the system, and what we've achieved under it.
It's easy to cherry pick the most successful monarchies and ignore the most dreadful, the same could be done with republics. The 3 that you've chosen have 2 things in common: 1) Their monarchs have zero power- any power that they do have, if they chose to exercise it, would result in a constitutional crisis that would result in their immediate dissolution. 2) Their monarchs are their own; born there, live there and an historic symbol of each country's independence, not a symbol of bygone colonialism.

Your use of the United States as an example is typically, myopically Canadian. We always use the U.S. as an example because we can't really think beyond the U.S./Canada comparisons. It's as if the rest of the world doesn't exist. German Federalism? What's that? The National Inferiority Complex, so much a part of the Canadian identity that it appears to actually be the Canadian identity, seems to drive us to the point that we will cling to this outmoded monarchy simply because it's one of the last bits of this country that we haven't sold (only because nobody will buy it).

In Canada, it's always fashionable to bash the United States. Despite the fact that our little country has been completely reliant on the U.S. for defence over the last 70 years, are almost completely reliant on them economically, and are culturally overwhelmed and nearly indistinguishable from them.. we will constantly denigrate their system as being somehow inferior, despite the fact that they have been the undisputed greatest nation in the world over the last century and we've been...

But we should feel good about ourselves, we're different. We've retained the monarchy. We're no upstart republic. The monarchy has ensured our stability and affluence. Either that or abundant natural resources.
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  #274  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 11:36 AM
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Oh that's you don't just hate the monarchy, you have Canada and everything it is and stands for in general.
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  #275  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
Oh that's you don't just hate the monarchy, you have Canada and everything it is and stands for in general.
He's got a near-soul-crushing inferiority complex combined with a bizarre identity crisis when it comes to both himself, his city, and his nation. And he hates basically everyone else, ESPECIALLY his countrymen.

When you realize this, and see the obvious projection onto everyone else, his posts become fairly amusing. If still a bit pointless. I honestly am waiting for the post that either ends in or is composed solely of (still haven't quite decided which would be funnier) "HULK SMASH!!!!!".
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  #276  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 2:33 PM
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I'm not a monarchist, .
Could've fooled me...
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  #277  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 3:00 PM
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This is turning into an epic troll thread.
Just like all the other threads in the Canada section.
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  #278  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 3:12 PM
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Could've fooled me...
A monarchist is in love with monarchy because it's monarchy. I like our monarchy because it's provided a stable platform for good government. Of course, most European monarchies have done that...so I guess from that end, it does make me a monarchist.
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  #279  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2011, 3:49 PM
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I too know the stress of misplacing the box full of Diana spoons.
THAT. Was funny.
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  #280  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2011, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by habfanman View Post
German Federalism? What's that?
Pretty much the same thing, except the head of state who only has ceremonial powers and will invoke a constitutional crisis if they use them is appointed by the legislative body. I would consider the German Federalist model as a viable candidate for a Canadian Republic system, but still think the cost to implement such a thing outweighs its benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habfanman View Post
But we should feel good about ourselves, we're different. We've retained the monarchy. We're no upstart republic. The monarchy has ensured our stability and affluence. Either that or abundant natural resources.
The way in which powers are separated under our constitutional monarchy today do ensure stability and affluence. A republic system set up with similar principles in terms of separation of power would do the same. A republic system like the United States would not ensure stability, as it has not ensured stability in the United States. There are other serious flaws in the American system that allow corruption to fester, however, and I don't think those would be instituted in Canada even if we adopted a republic system similar to theirs. The partisanship and bickering in that country's political system is far worse than anything Canada has ever seen, and hopefully ever will see.

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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Could've fooled me...
"I'm not a monarchist, I just think we can spend our time, effort and money on other, more fruitful goals than fiddling with the tip of the country's executive branch". How about that?
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