London's Malls

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

^Great pics, thanks for sharing them! The Mews was before my time so I had no idea what it looked like until now.

I do find it surprising that for a period London actually had two downtown malls right next to each other. I mean were either of them ever really successful?

Welcome. I had vague memories before I found those photos too.

It's astounding that there was a point in the late 80s/early 90s where developers believed 3 malls could've existed downtown. It was clearly in decline in the 1980s. Mews was a 5 level mall, Galleria took up nearly 2 city blocks and Talbot Block/Cambridge Development would have taken up another whole block. Not enough tenants now, let alone back then.

Interesting whatever happens with the area, if or when it is redeveloped. It's a huge site, could fit another condo, office tower, maybe even downtown bus terminal. It's right in the thick of downtown yet its been 14 years and it keeps getting 3 year extensions as surface parking lot.

It's been said before on here suburban malls (sprawl) killed downtown shopping. IMO 2 things helped with the decay. 1) Parking. People are cheap, don't wanna pay to park when you can go to other malls with the same/similar stuff and not have to pay. More so now with e-commerce 2) Poor (downtown) infrastructure. Traffic is a nightmare downtown, why the hell would someone want to travel 20-30 minutes fighting traffic to get downtown, have to find a parking spot, pay for it, when a suburban mall is less time, money and hassle? Richmond goes down effectively to 2-lane road downtown with all the buses, on street parking. Still no Riverside-King St. Bridge. No downtown ring road or through streets. Other areas of London have poor road/transit infrastructure, making further travel less desirable.

Pond Mills Square is the only one I really remember in its "heyday". That whole area on Commissioners from Pond Mills to Highbury is terrible, like a warzone now due to co-ops/subsidized housing. Everyone's abondoned the area for Summerside, east of Highbury. I remember the Square actually being an indoor mall and even had a carousel. Still see remnants of it, entrance signs removed and huge crater from the mall. Supposidly Zellers is suppose to be a Walmart but I cannot see Walmart wanting to invest in that area.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by haljackey

You missed Wonderland Mall... It has since been converted to The Athletic Club, Adventures on Wonderland and the now closed Angelo's Bakery.


I used to go to the Mews for cheap movies when I was a kid. I remember before it closed there was talk of converting it to a casino. I do think it had a lower parking level which is still somewhat intact to keep a foundation for redevelopment.

I'm 99% sure there was a parking garage entrance off King Street, at the west end of the building where the current parking lot entrance now is.

As an aside, I watched some of the demolition of the London Mews from what was then the second-floor food court of Galleria while eating at Burger King. I wish I had a camera with me. I believe the date was June 28, 1999.

[ssiguy]

As I stated before it was not that the Mews had anything particularily interesting but it was very well positioned.

It was the "connector" between Simpsons and Eatons/Wellington Square. Everyone would do the drot between the 2 and the Mews offered refuge from the weather helped avoid having to walk down King, and had parking. Despite it rather dark and uninviting interior it had a LOT of pedestrian traffic due to it's lcoation between the 2 big dept stores.

I think the big box stores have not hurt downtown but.....wait for it........actually helped it. It is the malls that have been hurt by these "super" centres. They offer the same free parking but bigger stores with lower prices due to their size and not having to pay the high lease costs of the malls.

The downtown association has done an excellent job of turning downtown around by finally acknowleging that it cannot compete with big box so it decided not to. I'm glad they haven't gone after any big stores as they are doom to fail, The City decided that instead of competing for the same clientele they would instead go after the unique and niche shoppers. That is one area where the big box stores cannot compete with downtown not only in unique stores, restaurants, and services but also in a more unique shopping experience.

This is why The Market, Talbot, Richmond Row, and Wortley Village are so successful......they offer the kind of shopping and entertainment experience that no mall or big box can ever offer. By deliberately not trying to entice the larger retailers it reinforced the idea that downtown was the place for people who, quite literally, think outside the box.

The big box stores and downtown are doing well because they aren't competing for the same clientelle or the same shopping experience. The City by building Budweiser, The Market, improving the buildings, encouraging cafes, more public entertainment and art, encouraging downtown residential growth, and enticing unique entertainment, restaurants, and shopping alternatives has made the downtown "cool" again.

Downtown is unrecognizable from what it was in the 1990s and has become a vibrant and interesting area. Downtown has done a complete 180 and that is not only proven by how people's attitudes have changed downtown but also by pedestrian traffic...........everytime I go back I notice how much busier the streets were than the last time I went.

Living there you may not notice it but if you were away and came back every few years, like myself, you really would notice it.

Downtown's view is that if you can't beat em then don't bother trying and that is a damn good philosophy and has positioned the downtown very well. Considering London's size and the weak economy, downtown is doing remarkably well.

It is the malls that have declined while the big box have flourished because in stead of appealing to everyone it appeals to no one. They cannot compete on price with the big box and yet don't offer anything interesting or alternative like downtown does...........it's no man's land.

This is not unique to London but has been taking place in every city on the continent...........downtowns are beginning to blossom with new energy, people, and alternative scenes at the same time the big box stores are........they both are flourishing because they are completely different demographics.

Only a few main malls will continue in most cities but their time has basically come and gone and it is not at all unique to London.

[realcity]

I think London has great malls. Better than Hamilton, I like the ones that are even struggling. London has a lot of good retail for a city its size, much better than Hamilton.

Guess the Mall?

[Simpseatles]

^Masonville?

After a visit to the NEW TARGET I ventured into Westmount for the first time in several years last weekend and boy was it sad. While the lower level still has pretty good foot traffic and little vacancy, it's basically just a glorified Cherryhill Mall now that the bottom section linking TARGET and Sears is basically all that's left. Walking around the place for the first time in quite a while just brought back a lot of memories. Used to visit the mall regularly with my grandparents when I was younger, and I was always impressed with how nice the place was with its fountains, skylights, and best of all...underground parking! It truly was the best mall in London, and it makes me shudder to think of how shitty White Oaks Mall is in comparison. I'm glad that the upper level is at least being used as offices, and that dying malls in London generally seem to get repurposed rather than left to rot, but the covered up storefronts on the top floor sure are such a sharp contrast to what used to be there. Guess I just never quite realized how much the mall had changed until last weekend. I always knew that it was slowly losing tenants, but it really hit home for me how bad it is now. Regardless, the mall began dying for me the day that Music World left.

Anyways, sorry for the long rant. It's just sad what has become of such a nice mall. The closing of Metro has just added insult to injury.

And I did not enjoy my experience at TARGET. It was too clean, too bright, too busy, and it seemed over-staffed with overly helpful people. Basically it was the opposite of Zellers. And what's with the Starbucks inside? It isn't Chapters. Who the hell walks into a bargain department store and thinks, "You know, I could really go for a Grande Cappuccino while I walk around looking for deals!" I for one bemoan the growing ubiquity of Starbucks, but that's another rant.

[manny_santos]

^^^ Don't even get me started on the Starbucks crowd. I work with a Starbucks girl. She even insists on Starbucks water instead of perfectly okay city tap water. I don't know how she has ever survived surrounded by Tim Hortons people.

[haljackey]

Target is seen as a step up from wal-fart so it has a Starbucks in it opposed to a Micky-dees.


On Friday, the Asian Supermarket (King Supermart) opened where the Metro/A&P used to be in Westmount Mall. I was impressed by their selection and prices. It will give Loblaws a run for their money as its butcher shop and seafood departments are much larger and much cheaper. There had to be at least 8 kinds of live fish, and the butcher counter is 3x the size of what it is with Loblaws... with people actually working behind it! The produce looks crazy cheap too, but not sure about the quality.

What I don't understand is how Target, a store with a full grocery section (including dairy/frozen) can compete in a mall with a grocery store. Granted, the two sections of the mall are now disjointed thanks to demolition of the central section (the part that doesn't have underground parking below it) but I fail to see the point.
-If you want groceries you're not going to Target even if you're there for other things because there's a store that offers a much better selection at better prices in the same building.

I guess we'll see what happens. Westmount has a new lease on life, but it is far from what it used to be. For some perspective, the new food court is where the water fountains once were...

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Target is seen as a step up from wal-fart so it has a Starbucks in it opposed to a Micky-dees.


On Friday, the Asian Supermarket (King Supermart) opened where the Metro/A&P used to be in Westmount Mall. I was impressed by their selection and prices. It will give Loblaws a run for their money as its butcher shop and seafood departments are much larger and much cheaper. There had to be at least 8 kinds of live fish, and the butcher counter is 3x the size of what it is with Loblaws... with people actually working behind it! The produce looks crazy cheap too, but not sure about the quality.

What I don't understand is how Target, a store with a full grocery section (including dairy/frozen) can compete in a mall with a grocery store. Granted, the two sections of the mall are now disjointed thanks to demolition of the central section (the part that doesn't have underground parking below it) but I fail to see the point.
-If you want groceries you're not going to Target even if you're there for other things because there's a store that offers a much better selection at better prices in the same building.

I guess we'll see what happens. Westmount has a new lease on life, but it is far from what it used to be. For some perspective, the new food court is where the water fountains once were...

Is that supposed to be the new food court? I looked for it when I was there and all I saw was a Tim Hortons and a juice place near the old water fountains. Pretty Pathetic. I was glad to see that the bagel place near the Target was still open though.

And the old Metro has become an Asian Supermarket then. Well that's good! I do remember hearing something about it but I didn't realize that is was taking the place of Metro.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

Is that supposed to be the new food court? I looked for it when I was there and all I saw was a Tim Hortons and a juice place near the old water fountains. Pretty Pathetic. I was glad to see that the bagel place near the Target was still open though.

And the old Metro has become an Asian Supermarket then. Well that's good! I do remember hearing something about it but I didn't realize that is was taking the place of Metro.

Good grief, I haven't been inside Westmount Mall since December 2011, and all the "food court" had at that time was Tim Hortons. Not much change since.

Westmount Mall, it seems, is only a step above Frederick Mall in Kitchener. When I last visited in 2007, its food court had only one tenant: Coffee Time. Bleh.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Who says that Target has to be a cheap store? Is this how a store is measured in London - whether it is "cheap" or not? How about quality and service? Here in the UK there are several large department stores, one being Marks and Spencers. M&S does not advertise itself as cheap, yet it is the busiest department store in every town it is in. Are Londoners so "low life" that we want to buy Walmart crap quality for everything?

No one wants another Walmart, yet they complain if another department store is more expensive. Makes no sense. Also, Starbucks coffee is only considered luxury coffee in Canada, where the alternative is hot brown water for $1.50 served by pimply faced teens. Starbucks in most other countries is considered pretty average coffee, certainly not luxury. I pay £2.00 for a coffee here - www.caffenero.com - and the lineups are just as big as Tim Hortons. There are no filtered coffee shops in the UK because nobody would buy hot brown water.

[ssiguy]

I remember in the 1970s when Westmount was THE mall in London. It's funny but it's demise started when the totally renovated and doubled the size of the the place and made it much larger in the 80s.

Perhaps that is part of the reason White Oaks survived and Westmount didn't...........there has been so little money put into the dump that rents are probably much lower.

London was over retailed and it nearly "mauled" the downtown to death but like all things, that is changing. The reign of the mall is gone and what is/has happened in London is occuring all over the continent. The retail scene is being divided between the big-box of suburbia and the increasing revival of downtowns with a few major malls still managing to stay afloat.

It is also important to remember that changing demographics also plays a role here.

Oakridge, Westmount, Sherwood Forest, Northlands, Arglye, etc were all built in the 1960/70s when those particular areas has fast growing populations and relatively large households typical of post-war NA. Today the suburbs of the 60s and 70s have declining populations and much older ones who tend to spend far less money and especially on discretionary spending. The kids are gone and the once house that had 5 to 8 people in it is now home to grandma and grandpa.

The young and educated are moving back downtown and the suburban types are moving even further out to get their McMansion in the sky. This is why when you go to StatsCan and see graphics for CMAs, the areas of the cities that are growing are the new suburbs and the downtown/inner cities with everything else in the middle in sharp decline.

Canada's first post-war suburban development of Toronto's Don Mills has seen considerable population decline at the same time that Milton and downtown are exploding. This is the same in Vancouver where in most of the city the population is in decline except the fast growing downtown/False Creek area. All the big 1960s/70s/80s population centres of Richmond, Burnaby, North/West Van, Delta are either declining in population or in complete stagnation. All the new condos make it look like the population is exploding but those condos are just filling up with the kids who have left their suburban homes.

The dying of the malls is due to changing shopping habits, lifestlye choices but also just plain old demographics...........they are perched in the middle of declining suburbs with older shoppers.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Last night I happened to be dragged (wife) to Whiteoaks Mall. This place is showing signs of being in trouble. At least 20 vacant fronts. At least 10 cellphone joints, and it seemed as though every second store also sold cellphones/packages as part of the merchandise mix. Craptastic stores like those repleting the Westmount Mall's second floor before it was converted to offices. Shit on a stick, with corn.

I rarely go to shopping malls unless I need to buy something I can't get elsewhere. Most shopping malls, White Oaks included, are filled with stores that sell overpriced junque. I've deliberately misspelled the word 'junk' to convey the proper connotation - the idea that we're dealing with wares that are designed to appear to be of high quality, but are really garbage. I find the clothing stores, particularly the ones oriented to young people (i.e. those in the 18 - 25 demographic) are the worst offenders.

One reason why such stores exist is that you have to have huge margins on your products in order to be able to cover rent, which is almost always very high in malls, partly because of the large energy and maintenance requirements.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

^Masonville?

After a visit to the NEW TARGET I ventured into Westmount for the first time in several years last weekend and boy was it sad...

I agree that Westmount isn't much of a mall anymore. Then again, it hasn't been 'much of a mall' for a long time now. But the way the upper floor has been renovated and turned into offices is a damn sight better than what the mall could have been if the status quo had been allowed to prevail.

I'm disappointed to see the Metro store going - it was a handy place to pick up last-minute items after going to see a movie. It surprises me that people who live in the actual Westmount neighbourhood didn't seem to want to shop there. I suspect the higher-than-average prices in that particular Metro turned them away.

For a long time now, malls have seemed to me to be places where mostly kids shop and hang out. In the days when the Westmount subdivision was younger and there were tons of kids in the neighbourhood, the mall was doing a booming business. But now the population is rapidly aging, and with fewer and fewer young people around, it's no surprise that malls are dying, Westmount included.

I checked out the Target store at Westmount. It was OK - at least it felt reasonably fresh, neat, and clean, compared to the dingy, haphazard feel Zellers had. One thing I didn't like was that the store felt rather closed in because of the colour scheme, and the fact that the entrances to the mall were equally closed in. At least Zeller's, in spite of its generally run-down kind of feel, was a bit spacious and airy.

I thought the Starbucks at the main entrance was a little odd too. I sense that the idea of locating a Starbucks inside a Target store is a very American kind of thing, and maybe that's why it strikes Canadians as different. The way I see it, the reason why so many American chains are flooding into Canada now is that Canadians suck at running retail stores. The closest thing to a truly successful retail chain Canada has ever had was Eaton's, and that got run into the ground after the greedy Eaton kids inherited it.

For what it's worth, I haven't drunk coffee in a very long time. When I did drink it, I found I did not like Starbucks coffee very much. It was way too strong-tasting. But then again, bold and brash seems to be how Americans like their coffee. Before I stopped drinking coffee, I found Tim Horton's coffee getting worse and worse, to the point where I couldn't help but think they were trying to compete directly with Starbucks on flavour. Timmy's coffee used to be reasonably smooth, but somewhere down the line it became just vile.

The one recent US retail import I think is not going to survive in London is the new Marshalls store located near the Home Depot on Wonderland Road South. I had a chance to visit the store last week, and it didn't seem to have much selection. Some of their prices were off the wall, too. Like $299.99 for a pair of designer shoes, but little else in between that and the low-end $19.99 - 29.99 stuff.

If anything, Marshalls made me think of what a Marks and Spencer store might look like if it were run by Americans and not Britons.

[ssiguy]

Contrary to popular belief, Starbucks coffee is not that strong but rather bitter.

It gets this bitter/strong feeling taste because the beans are double roasted.

[MolsonExport]

Fulfilling popular belief, Tim Hortons coffee is really just warmed swamp water. Which is why many take it "Double-double" (or triple-triple). Almost ersatz coffee.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

^^^ Don't even get me started on the Starbucks crowd. I work with a Starbucks girl. She even insists on Starbucks water instead of perfectly okay city tap water. I don't know how she has ever survived surrounded by Tim Hortons people.

I've said this before and I will say it again, the "Starbucks Crowd" (ie the obsessive folk who would not be caught dead with anything else) is primarily made up of people who have some sort of underlying inferiority complex and have to seek self-satisfaction through upscale products. Can you imagine what people would think of her if they saw her with a bottle of water that came out of a lake? Horrible!

Originally Posted by haljackey

On Friday, the Asian Supermarket (King Supermart) opened where the Metro/A&P used to be in Westmount Mall. I was impressed by their selection and prices. It will give Loblaws a run for their money as its butcher shop and seafood departments are much larger and much cheaper. There had to be at least 8 kinds of live fish, and the butcher counter is 3x the size of what it is with Loblaws... with people actually working behind it! The produce looks crazy cheap too, but not sure about the quality.

In my experience, Asians are very picky about the quality of their food, especially the Japanese (though I don't think there are many of them around London). They tend to spend a much higher proportion of their incomes on fresh, unprocessed food, so they naturally demand good quality in return. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I've said this before and I will say it again, the "Starbucks Crowd" (ie the obsessive folk who would not be caught dead with anything else) is primarily made up of people who have some sort of underlying inferiority complex and have to seek self-satisfaction through upscale products. Can you imagine what people would think of her if they saw her with a bottle of water that came out of a lake? Horrible!

You can say it as many times as you wish. It doesn't mean it's true whatsoever. Where I live now, Starbucks is not considered upscale whatsoever. You saying someone has an inferiority complex because they like coffee which tastes better than Tim Hortons? Who are you? The crap Nazi? If I don't like crap coffee, I have an inferiority complex? Ha! You should take a trip outside London and discover there's a big world out there. Some people have tastes for finer things. I don't have a problem with you being a Walmart greeter so you shouldn't dislike me because I like my coffee to taste like, um coffee.

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

You can say it as many times as you wish. It doesn't mean it's true whatsoever. Where I live now, Starbucks is not considered upscale whatsoever. You saying someone has an inferiority complex because they like coffee which tastes better than Tim Hortons? Who are you? The crap Nazi? If I don't like crap coffee, I have an inferiority complex? Ha! You should take a trip outside London and discover there's a big world out there. Some people have tastes for finer things. I don't have a problem with you being a Walmart greeter so you shouldn't dislike me because I like my coffee to taste like, um coffee.

Did it ever occur to you that Wharn was referring to Starbucks drinkers in North America. Here it is very much associated with pretentious types looking for something "upscale". That may not be the way it is in the UK, but from my experience that is indeed what it's like here. And why do you assume that if someone dislikes Starbucks they are immediately fans of Tim Hortons? I hate both of them. You're right on one thing though, there is a big world out there. It's full of other coffee chains and even, <gasp>, independant coffee shops! All of which can be found right here in London. My apologies that not all of us are as cultured as you clearly are.

[ssiguy]

Meanwhile back at London Malls................does City Centre Mall have any stores left?

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

Did it ever occur to you that Wharn was referring to Starbucks drinkers in North America. Here it is very much associated with pretentious types looking for something "upscale".

Probably it is associated with pretentious types by a few people in London, Ontario, but that doesn't mean that is reality. It doesn't mean people are pretentious because they like better quality coffee. You sound very small town to me. One doesn't have to be cultured to like better coffee. They just have to have taste buds. I'm sure yours will develop once you hit puberty.