Metro Vancouver Bike/Pedestrian Discussion

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by racc

Don't judge anything by the media reports, Remember how wrong they were on Burrard Bridge. "Controversy" and conflict sells papers. Don't judge any group of people by media reports. Go and find out for yourself. There are a few "idiots" that go to Critical Mass just like there are a few idiot drivers on the streets. All and all, most of the cyclists in Critical Mass are fine and are respectful of others just like most motorists are.

Well, hold on here. There was plenty of controversy when the bike lane trial was being planned. It didn't turn into a mess, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of concern prior to the implementation.

Regarding Critical Mass, I've seen it a few times before, and there are definitely a lot of fringe elements present. The fact that myself and other commuter cyclists (the exact type that Gregor and his bike lane proposals are designed for) don't support this at all should raise red flags with this group, if they are serious about promoting cycling as a mode of transport. This monthly event is working it's way towards an APC/Riot 2010 type activity.

Like one radio caller said this morning on CKNW: What does this group want? Who are they trying to influence to do what exactly? Nobody seems to know. Circle City Hall, or the legislature in Victoria if you are looking for more bike lanes or whatever.

[s211]

Originally Posted by vanlaw

Totally agree. I cycle commute 3-4 days a week as well, and these people really dont help anyones cause, they just piss people off.

Urge to drive a front-loading scooper (a la Soylent Green) through (that steaming pack of wasted flesh known as) Critical Mass rising.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Regarding Critical Mass, I've seen it a few times before, and there are definitely a lot of fringe elements present. The fact that myself and other commuter cyclists (the exact type that Gregor and his bike lane proposals are designed for) don't support this at all should raise red flags with this group, if they are serious about promoting cycling as a mode of transport. This monthly event is working it's way towards an APC/Riot 2010 type activity.

Totally agree.

The only other similar protests that I can recall are truck drivers protesting (I think) Port fees - there were long lines of semi-tractor trailers down Knight street and maybe on Hwy 1?
Did the taxi drivers also do something similar?
But the difference is that those didn't have the anti-social element.

[BCPhil]

The bikers, who have made considerable gains on lanes, now call it a celebration of cycling.
...
Andrea Curtis, a Critical Mass cyclist, says she recognizes the frustration they’ll be causing drivers.

“I apologize for the inconvenience, but I really urge motorists to shut off their motors and accept the fact that we’re going to pass by.”

Curtis calls the Burrard bridge bike lane “a triumph” but says that it’s “just the beginning.”

As for the mass, “it’s only one day a month,” she says. “Our goal is to demonstrate and promote cycling as sustainable.”

It's not a celebration when you are intentionally causing other people hardship.

They are getting what they want. They are getting bike lanes, and have a pro bike mayor. You won. Give it up. It's just becoming a schedule exercise in civil disobedience.

I also don't understand how causing gridlock with bikes shows that biking is "sustainable". They are making getting around (on buses too) impossible. That is the opposite of sustainable.

[racc]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

It's not a celebration when you are intentionally causing other people hardship.

They are getting what they want. They are getting bike lanes, and have a pro bike mayor. You won. Give it up. It's just becoming a schedule exercise in civil disobedience.

I also don't understand how causing gridlock with bikes shows that biking is "sustainable". They are making getting around (on buses too) impossible. That is the opposite of sustainable.

Oh please. 99.99% of congestion is caused by people driving. People driving cause congestion all the time by showing up all at once for an event whether it be a concert, sporting event or the morning commute. These people driving to these events show no concern regarding the inconvenience that their driving to the event causes to other people driving. If you really care about congestion and inconveniencing others, then stop driving.

Just like Critical Mass, there is a small minority of people that drive to these events that behave like idiots and make things worse for everyone. It is a good idea to avoid the streets before or after a Canucks, Lions Game or a Guns n' Roses concert.

I'm not sure why you expect the behaviour of people on bikes to be better than that of people who drive.

Anyway, the media is just trying to drum up controversy to sell papers.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by racc

Oh please. 99.99% of congestion is caused by people driving. People driving cause congestion all the time by showing up all at once for an event whether it be a concert, sporting event or the morning commute. These people driving to these events show no concern regarding the inconvenience that their driving to the event causes to other people driving. If you really care about congestion and inconveniencing others, then stop driving.

Just like Critical Mass, there is a small minority of people that drive to these events that behave like idiots and make things worse for everyone. It is a good idea to avoid the streets before or after a Canucks, Lions Game or a Guns n' Roses concert.

I'm not sure why you expect the behaviour of people on bikes to be better than that of people who drive.

Anyway, the media is just trying to drum up controversy to sell papers.

I'm not saying cars don't cause congestion or gridlock. But cars cause gridlock as a side effect of people doing something else. But the bikes are intentionally causing gridlock when traffic is normally moving. That does not equal, or show off, the sustainability of bikes.

[racc]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I'm not saying cars don't cause congestion or gridlock. But cars cause gridlock as a side effect of people doing something else. But the bikes are intentionally causing gridlock when traffic is normally moving. That does not equal, or show off, the sustainability of bikes.

The intent of Critical Mass is not to cause gridlock just as this is not the intent of concerts, sporting events or the Police and Fire Games Parade scheduled Friday evening. The intent is to enjoy cycling safely without being threatened constantly by aggressive or careless drivers. It is only for a couple of hours once a month in a small portion of the region. Meanwhile, motorists enjoy free reign and nearly exclusive use of public roads throughout the region 365 days a year. Roads that are safe and constructed to a very high standard for driving, and yet still drivers seem unhappy and always seem to want more.

I'm not sure why you think that drivers have the right to gather and unintentionally cause congestion on public roads while cyclists don't.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I'm not saying cars don't cause congestion or gridlock. But cars cause gridlock as a side effect of people doing something else. But the bikes are intentionally causing gridlock when traffic is normally moving. That does not equal, or show off, the sustainability of bikes.

Agreed. I'll also add that Friday afternoon, downtown, is the absolute worst timing. People just want to get home to their families and start their weekends a little early. Do it on Saturdays if you're serious about keeping the mood light.

I think the Police and Firefighters games start up tomorrow, with a parade and stuff. Should be an interesting mix, with the long weekend, and all the heat...

[racc]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Agreed. I'll also add that Friday afternoon, downtown, is the absolute worst timing. People just want to get home to their families and start their weekends a little early. Do it on Saturdays if you're serious about keeping the mood light.

I think the Police and Firefighters games start up tomorrow, with a parade and stuff. Should be an interesting mix, with the long weekend, and all the heat...

CM starts between 6:15 and 6:30. Anyone wanting to start the weekend early has left hours ago. If this was a big concern with the city, they would have not allowed the Police and Fire Games Parade at the same time. Nor would they allow events such as concerts and sporting events that people drive to at around that time. We are a big city with lots of stuff going on that creates congestion. Get used to it and stop picking on Critical Mass, which accounts for only a very small portion of congestion in the region.

If you think CM is bad, just try being stuck in the Critical Mess of everyone heading back into town at the end of the long weekend. Can't blame that one on cyclists.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by racc

If this was a big concern with the city, they would have not allowed the Police and Fire Games Parade at the same time. Nor would they allow events such as concerts and sporting events that people drive to at around that time.

Hahaha.. you make me laugh. That's the exact sense of entitlement that is the problem.

[Login650]

Originally Posted by racc

The intent of Critical Mass is not to cause gridlock just as this is not the intent of concerts, sporting events or the Police and Fire Games Parade scheduled Friday evening. The intent is to enjoy cycling safely without being threatened constantly by aggressive or careless drivers. It is only for a couple of hours once a month in a small portion of the region. Meanwhile, motorists enjoy free reign and nearly exclusive use of public roads throughout the region 365 days a year. Roads that are safe and constructed to a very high standard for driving, and yet still drivers seem unhappy and always seem to want more.

I'm not sure why you think that drivers have the right to gather and unintentionally cause congestion on public roads while cyclists don't.

I agree completely.

I rode in critical mass for the first time last month and it was a revelation to be able to ride through city streets without cars. I honestly thought the event was a bit of a stunt until I rode in it and realized it's just such a relief to ride safely (without cars around) that most people are there for the joy of that experience, not because they want to upset people.

29 days out of the month cars get to upset everything and hold us all up, 1 day of the month the cyclists do it for a few hours. Hardly world-ending.

[vanlaw]

Originally Posted by Login650

29 days out of the month cars get to upset everything and hold us all up

Really? Cars hold us up? I cycle in about 10km from east van to downtown. I generally stick to the designated bike routes, and rarely am i held up by cars. The only bad spot is coming down the hill on Pender from Cambie to Columbia where cars are making rights on beatty and abbott, but I just take the normal lane instead - easy enough.

Why does it have to be an "us or them issue"? - i.e. "they get it 29 days a month so we can have our 1 day? Doesn’t seem to be a good strategy/frame of mind.

[s211]

Originally Posted by racc

CM starts between 6:15 and 6:30. Anyone wanting to start the weekend early has left hours ago. If this was a big concern with the city, they would have not allowed the Police and Fire Games Parade at the same time. Nor would they allow events such as concerts and sporting events that people drive to at around that time. We are a big city with lots of stuff going on that creates congestion. Get used to it and stop picking on Critical Mass, which accounts for only a very small portion of congestion in the region.

If you think CM is bad, just try being stuck in the Critical Mess of everyone heading back into town at the end of the long weekend. Can't blame that one on cyclists.

"It's already congested, so let's make it even MORE congested. Who cares?"

What a load of sanctimonious horse hockey.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by racc

The intent of Critical Mass is not to cause gridlock just as this is not the intent of concerts, sporting events or the Police and Fire Games Parade scheduled Friday evening. The intent is to enjoy cycling safely without being threatened constantly by aggressive or careless drivers. It is only for a couple of hours once a month in a small portion of the region. Meanwhile, motorists enjoy free reign and nearly exclusive use of public roads throughout the region 365 days a year. Roads that are safe and constructed to a very high standard for driving, and yet still drivers seem unhappy and always seem to want more.

I'm not sure why you think that drivers have the right to gather and unintentionally cause congestion on public roads while cyclists don't.

What a load of nonsense. Of course Critical Mess is designed to cause disruption. Otherwise they'd head out to Point Grey for a cycle around campus or out to Richmond for a cycle along the dike. So now hundreds of small and large businesses downtown will suffer as people avoid it like the plague tomorrow.

For the sake of the twits participating in Critical Mess, let's hope some driver doesn't lose it in the heat and take a few of them out.

I assume Gregor and the VPD will be just as tolerant when I organize a classic car show and drive a few hundred cars down the Burrard Bridge bike lane or other cycling routes.

[racc]

Originally Posted by s211

"It's already congested, so let's make it even MORE congested. Who cares?"

What a load of sanctimonious horse hockey.

So if you really care about congestion, then don't drive. You only make the road more congested.

[racc]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I assume Gregor and the VPD will be just as tolerant when I organize a classic car show and drive a few hundred cars down the Burrard Bridge bike lane or other cycling routes.

You don't need to make the effort. Many of the bikeways are already congested with cars making them slower to cycle on.

Anyway, cars have free reign of thousands of km's of publicly funded roads for all but 2 hours once a month for a couple of hours. Drivers often illegally intimidate cyclists driving them off the roads. Drivers had it really good and still they want more and complain whenever their domination of public space is challenged.

What is really silly is that every person on a bike means less traffic on the road which, in the end, reduces congestion.

[Spork]

The point isn't whether or not there are a ton of cyclists, it is that they are not following the rules of the road. If they stopped at red lights, etc. I could care less how fast or slow they are going. Last summer when I had to wait 30 mins for a 99 b-line bus because it was a constant stream of bikes going perpendicular to that bus, I got pretty pissed off. Cars do NOT have free reign, they follow rules. I highly doubt that drivers are purposefully trying to drive cyclists off of the road.

I say we organize an opposite of critical mass and run a weaving route perpendicular to their route. Then they can experience why their little protest is such asinine bullshit- they aren't following the rules of the road that are there to regulate traffic flow and constrain chaos!

[b5baxter]

...the Police and Fire Games Parade scheduled Friday evening...

Which is likely to cause much more traffic disruption then Critical Mass (since cyclists move faster than marchers).

Isn't it interesting that the VPD suddenly chooses to issue a press release where they fail to mention their own march but issue a warning about Critical Mass (they certainly didn't issue a press release before the much larger ride in June)?

Perhaps they recognize that motorists will be upset by the delays and they are trying to shift the blame to cyclists????

[racc]

Originally Posted by Spork

Cars do NOT have free reign, they follow rules. I highly doubt that drivers are purposefully trying to drive cyclists off of the road.

What alternate universe do you live in where drivers are not constantly speeding, tailgating, running red lights, not signalling, texting, talking on the phone, not stopping at crosswalks, getting stuck in the middle of intersections during red lights and rolling though stop signs. To be honest, I expect that drivers are no worse or better than cyclists except that drivers kill hundreds and injure thousands of people in BC every year.

Most drivers are OK around cyclists. It just takes a few though to scare cyclists off the road. The real problem is all the people talking on their cell phones. Bottom line, whether it is intentional illegal or not, drivers intimidate most cyclists off busy roads.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by racc

tailgating

While not safe, it's not illegal.

Originally Posted by racc

not signalling

Please, many cyclists don't do this either.

Originally Posted by racc

texting

Again, while not safe, it's not illegal.

Originally Posted by racc

talking on the phone

This is a complete different story as I do this myself. However, I don't support people talking on the phones without bluetooth or headsets.

Originally Posted by racc

rolling though stop signs.

This is funny. As a cyclist, I don't do this.

It's really a matter of when to do stuff when it's safely. Do I really follow the 50 km/hr speed limit. Generally, I drive with the flow of the traffic. Do I make a complete stop at stop signs? No, but I slow down enough to make sure I check twice to not run into anyone.

I'm sick and tired of this cyclist vs. cars debate here at SSP. In reality, both groups have many problems and it will always be that way.