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  #261  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 5:27 PM
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Don't be silly.

Integration would be a loss for everyone.

@PriceMazda: I believe that your support to integration is biased by the fact you are susbsidised by Europe.

However:

Look at Belgium: this country is heading for separatism. I don't say it's good or bad. It is just a fact that different ethnic group wants to be ruled differently and according to their own desiderata.
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  #262  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 8:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dear Leader
You don't always have to vote along party lines though. I don't agree with everything the FDP does for example (they're in favor of Turkish EU membership). If there was a referendum on it in Germany, I'd vote against it...and I'd probably be lumped together with Neo-Nazis by you (after all the right wing NPD is dead set against it as well).
Always an excuse right?

When the Dutch start agreeing with communists and religious right, you know something isn't right.

People voted against more democracy, how stupid is that?

There shouldn't have been a referendum on such a complex issue in the first place. A referendum which btw was consultative (non binding).
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  #263  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 8:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHiRO
When the Dutch start agreeing with communists and religious right, you know something isn't right.
They also agreed with The Economist and the Tories. All I'm saying is that your "xy was against it, hence you're xy yourself" logic is flawed. We can debate the merits of the consitution until the cows come home but blaming people for not voting in line with their party's stance makes no sense.
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  #264  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 8:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jef
Don't be silly.

Integration would be a loss for everyone.
You probably don't understand what is meant by integration.



Quote:
@PriceMazda: I believe that your support to integration is biased by the fact you are susbsidised by Europe.
that's not only silly but also offensive. I'll let PM speak for himself though...



Quote:
However:

Look at Belgium: this country is heading for separatism. I don't say it's good or bad. It is just a fact that different ethnic group wants to be ruled differently and according to their own desiderata.
Oh please spare us. Belgium is not headed towards seperatism, and if anything a EU framework is a better garantee for regionalism (see Catalonia).
What different "ethnic" groups?
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  #265  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dear Leader
They also agreed with The Economist and the Tories. All I'm saying is that your "xy was against it, hence you're xy yourself" logic is flawed. We can debate the merits of the consitution until the cows come home but blaming people for not voting in line with their party's stance makes no sense.
Not their party, ALL parties. All non extremist parties in any case.
And we can't debate the merits of the constitution because the vast mayority of no voters still haven't got a clue what they voted against.

Seriously, my logic is not "xy was against it, hence you're xy yourself", mu logic is that the constitutional treaty was supported by a wide political base (I'd call 140 out of 150 a wide base). These people know what it wa about, it's their job. If all of a sudden 60% of voters is going to disagree with hthe people they themselves have elected to represent them and start agreeing with extremists, you know something is wrong and it is not the 140 MP's on the pro side.

And would you be so kind as to prove your claim that the Economist was against the constitutional treaty?
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  #266  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 8:56 PM
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And would you be so kind as to prove your claim that the Economist was against the constitutional treaty?
There you go: http://www.electroniceconomist.com/r...jectid=3833071
European voters should reject the new constitutional treaty and demand something better
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  #267  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:03 PM
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You can't view that if you're not subscribed...(copy paste?)

Anyway, if it is an opinion piece you have proven nothing...
(though you sure do try hard ).

EDIT- From the intro it seems like they are saying that the constitutional treaty is too much of a compromise and that we should demand something better. That sounds to me like a call for more integration, not less...
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  #268  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:05 PM
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It's a piece by The Economist. As soon as I find my account details, I'll post it in this thread.
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  #269  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:09 PM
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Alrighty then...

The right verdict on the constitution
Jun 24th 2004
From The Economist print edition



European voters should reject the new constitutional treaty and demand something better

THE task of agreeing a new constitutional treaty for the European Union with 25 countries around the table, all with their own interests and aims, was no doubt a difficult one. Compromise, fudge and imperfection were inevitable. The text that European governments ended up with on June 18th may be, as they say, the best that could be done in such circumstances. Fortunately, however, there is now a chance for those circumstances to be changed: at least ten countries will put the new treaty to their voters in referendums, while the others seek to ratify it solely through their parliaments. Those voters would do themselves, and the European Union, a great service if they were to reject this treaty and jolt governments into coming up with a better version.

Some European politicians and EU devotees have argued that the consequences of a rejection would be catastrophic. That is hyperbole. It might be true that if merely one country out of 25—Britain, say—were to vote no, the situation would be awkward for all concerned. Yet that can be dealt with when and if it occurs (Britain's referendum may well not take place until 2006, the last or nearly last of all the polls). It would be bizarre indeed—unconstitutional even—if governments were to be holding referendums in which only one outcome is deemed acceptable. If you can't take no for an answer, why ask the question? The European Union badly needs more popular legitimacy, as the big anti-incumbent votes and quite sizeable anti-EU votes in this month's European Parliament elections showed. And the big flaw in the proposed constitutional treaty is that it does little or nothing to make Europeans likelier to feel comfortable with the whole enterprise.

Checks, balances and brakes

Regular readers, and offended Europhiles, will recall that when the first draft of this proposed constitution was unveiled in June last year, we recommended (see article) that governments should throw it in the wastepaper bin and start again. Unaccountably, European leaders failed to take our advice. Partly, perhaps, this was because so much time had already been invested in producing that draft, but mainly it was because the treaty does bring some real improvements to the EU—for governments. For the people they serve, however, it does not.

This whole exercise, it should be noted, was supposedly intended to bring the Union closer to its citizens. The so-called Laeken declaration of December 2001, which launched the process of writing a new constitution to replace the existing treaties, talked of popular concerns about too many powers being exercised at European rather than national level, about the lack of democratic scrutiny, and about European institutions and practices being rigid and hard to understand. In fact, however, the new constitutional treaty focuses on a genuine but quite different problem: how to make decision-making easier in an enlarged EU.

If you measure the new treaty against that problem alone, it is a success: a clear improvement on the previous arrangements (see article). The new voting system is fairer and more workable than the absurd formula set up in the Nice treaty of 2001; national vetoes have been removed from several areas; the Union's executive, the European Commission, will eventually (by 2014) have fewer commissioners and thus be less top-heavy; meetings of member governments, the European Council, will be presided over by one person for two-and-a-half years rather than a different country every six months; the Union will have one common representative for foreign policy rather than two, as now.

But the point of a constitution, or even of a constitutional treaty, as many European leaders now prefer to call it, is not simply to make the process of government easier. In some ways, just the reverse: it is to make sure that government happens under clear rules and constraints, so that it is hard for it to act and evolve in ways that citizens find unacceptable. Otherwise, effectiveness may be achieved at the expense of popular legitimacy and, ultimately, provoke a backlash. That is where Europe's new constitution fails.

For starters, the new treaty is little easier to understand than its predecessors; nor, overall, are the new institutional arrangements. It was probably always hopeless to expect something that could be recited in schools, however. Much more important is the fact that the new treaty does nothing to provide citizens with any sense of control over the process of European government or the evolution of the EU.

Contrary to Laeken's aspirations, no powers have been repatriated. Protections for “subsidiarity”—ensuring that issues are dealt with at the most appropriate level—are weak at best, non-existent at worst: national parliaments are invited to speak up if they think subsidiarity has been flouted, but the European Commission is merely obliged to take note. A procedure known as the “emergency brake” will now allow governments that are uncomfortable with EU measures in social security or criminal justice to opt out of them, but the provision is so vague that it is unclear how it will work. And the European Court of Justice may have been given a more powerful role in coming decades in interpreting the constitution and especially its attached Charter of Fundamental Rights in such a way as to enforce and accelerate integration. Or it may not have been. No one can be sure.

Aux urnes, citoyens

That lack of subsidiarity, of control, above all of any real sense of constitutional stability are the fundamental flaws of this treaty. The European Union does need a smoother, more efficient decision-making process, both for its own sake and so that it can enlarge itself even more in future, bringing in more countries in eastern Europe and the Balkans, and Turkey. But if voters are to feel comfortable both with that efficiency and that enlargement, they need a constitution that stabilises and controls the process properly. Such a constitution plainly cannot be achieved just by inter-governmental negotiations. It needs to be demanded by voters. That is why the best result in all the ten referendums would be a resounding no vote.
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  #270  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:13 PM
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Shiro: I did not intend to be offensive with Pricemazda and I am sorry if it was understood as such. I have also been working for the EU and indeed I believe it could lead to a bias.

For your information, there are two main ethnic groups in Belgium: The Flemish speaking (Flanders, Brussels) and the French speaking (Brussels, Wallonia). Note there is also a small German speaking area in the eastern part of the country.
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  #271  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:30 PM
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@TDL: Thanks for the article, still not sure if this is a opinion piece or "the official" stance of the Economist.

I find it a bit light though. There isn't much critisism to reply to. The judgement is that there isn't enough of the principle of subsidiarity to be found in the treaty, but by their own admission there is more of that in it then we currently have. They also forgot to mention that the treaty provides for members wanting to leave the union and for civil initiatives accompanied by 1 million signatures.

This last example just infuriated me recently when the Socialist Party here posted an article on their website talking how "Brussels" didn't listen to an initiative they supported against the moving around of the EP each month (a minor issue but very usefull for propaganda off course), accompanied by 1 million signatures (400,000 of which they got). How can someone take these guys seriously? First they campaign against the treaty which would have provided for signature initiatives and now they are saying "Brussels" doesn't listen to their initiative. It's just sickening, much like this article. yeah, vote no so that you can afterwards complain about the lack of things the treaty would have provided in...
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  #272  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jef
For your information, there are two main ethnic groups in Belgium: The Flemish speaking (Flanders, Brussels) and the French speaking (Brussels, Wallonia). Note there is also a small German speaking area in the eastern part of the country.
FYI, Flemings and Walloons are not different ethnicities...
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  #273  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:37 PM
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I'm pretty sure that was the official stance of The Economist, after all this was their cover back then:



All they're saying is that the document's not good enough. And I can't blame them. A constitution is something that's supposed to be one of the central pillars of your society, a document that shouldn't be changed or tampered with all the time. If you get the basic issues wrong, you're essentially screwed. Of course we can argue about whether it's even possible to get a better document, one that all 25 or 27 member states can agree on. But then we're back to the debate about European unity and European values.
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  #274  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHiRO
@TDL: Thanks for the article, still not sure if this is a opinion piece or "the official" stance of the Economist..
Of course, it is.
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  #275  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dear Leader
All they're saying is that the document's not good enough. And I can't blame them. A constitution is something that's supposed to be one of the central pillars of your society, a document that shouldn't be changed or tampered with all the time. If you get the basic issues wrong, you're essentially screwed. Of course we can argue about whether it's even possible to get a better document, one that all 25 or 27 member states can agree on. But then we're back to the debate about European unity and European values.
IT ISN'T A CONSTITUTION!!!!!!
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  #276  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jef
Of course, it is.
Yeah, but does that somehow validate things? Sure it's more valid then if it was just one person's opinion, but it still is just an opinion.

I find the article to be extremely simplistic and "light".
Furthermore it omits a great deal of information to the reader.
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  #277  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 9:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHiRO
IT ISN'T A CONSTITUTION!!!!!!
If it walks like a constitution and talks like a constitution...I'll call it a constitution.

Seriously, Europhiles always talked about the need for a European constitution but as soon as they saw that this name might not be too popular they decided to call it a treaty.
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  #278  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2006, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dear Leader
If it walks like a constitution and talks like a constitution...I'll call it a constitution.

Seriously, Europhiles always talked about the need for a European constitution but as soon as they saw that this name might not be too popular they decided to call it a treaty.
But it doesn't walk and talk like a constitution! Do you really know that little about it still?

It was always a treaty, to name it constitution had an adverse effect. maybe to the point that it would have passed otherwise. It certainly would have passed without the silly referenda which actually were counter democratic in retrospect.
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  #279  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2006, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jef
Don't be silly.

Integration would be a loss for everyone.

@PriceMazda: I believe that your support to integration is biased by the fact you are susbsidised by Europe.

However:

Look at Belgium: this country is heading for separatism. I don't say it's good or bad. It is just a fact that different ethnic group wants to be ruled differently and according to their own desiderata.
How on earth am I subsidised? Could it be possible that someone might want to work within EU institutions because they are pro-european to start with, rather than are corrupted by lavishing cash and benefits on them.

People forget that 2 countries also voted in favour of the consitution should we ignore the democratic will of those countries?

Why is it the negative result seems to be worth more?
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  #280  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2006, 1:10 AM
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The best thing about the EU is the freedom of movement. We are no longer confined to our small countries but have a vast continental sized country that stretches from the Arctic Circle to the sunny Mediterranean and we can all travel, work, and live wherever we choose with no need for visas. It's a huge increase in our personal freedom.

Compared to this the EU constitution really pales into insignificiance. OK so it was supposed to make some processes smoother and faster but do most of us actually care about that stuff? Probably not. If it doesn't impact upon our daily lives then why should we care?
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