LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If the Sens are going to develop Lebreton, they're going to have to put a bunch of bars and restaurants, etc. in the area to make the move financially viable. I do agree that if its just a barren arena, the whole project is useless.

There's a bunch of office proposals (some very giant IIRC) around Bayview station. If they get developed, it would be perfect to provide some nice juicy parking spaces for event nights. After 6pm and on weekends office parking would be very empty, so whoever owns those buildings would be foolish NOT to sell spaces there.

This is all about the overall community design. It has to be a mixed community and lots of people have to live there. Bars and restaurants will never be really successful if the bulk of their patrons are sports fans who provide business only 40 days of the year for a couple of hours.

So I am looking for what comes with an arena plan. I want it to be as exciting as possible.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

This struck me as a bit of an obvious statement. But the article goes on to talk about these Peterborough-sized cities which peg their future and their meagre tax revenues hoping that a stadium and an NHL team will revive their entire town. This is far, far from being the case in Ottawa.

Is it though? So far it sounds like idealism from a bunch of people tired of having to trek out to Kanata to watch a bunch of millionaires skated around and bump into each other. On this thread, with no real proof that it's going to be an economic boom for the city, people are talking about how it's perfect for the Flats, it'll revitalize them and benefit the downtown (maybe even revitalize Sparks Street). But has Montreal's stadium contributed to economic growth for their core? It's not near any businesses, and is kind of on the edge of the downtown anyway, in an area that is now seeing some highrises go up, but is largely a part of the city people don't go to unless it's to their office building.

How are we so sure that the city won't lose money building a new stadium here, and that there won't be a lot of problems arising afterwards? I might suggest putting it near the train station as a better option. But we don't even know if Lansdowne will be an economic success (when it's actually complete we'll see how the Glebe and Lansdowne fair, but it's too soon to tell).

As great as it would be to try to move it someplace more central, I don't think the Flats are ideal and I don't think it's going to be as good as people think.

[Aylmer]

Fair enough. I think you're right in saying that it's more of a question of it being more central and accessible. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that it will somehow insure consistent activity for Lebreton and certainly not downtown - I think we can manage 50 nights a year, perhaps more, but not enough to fuel day-to-day activity in the area. That said, I don't think we can deny the activity it does generate when the arena is in use, especially if we give people a reason to (as it's been stated here before) come early and stay late. I do think that there's something to be said for having a large, indoor venue suitable for big events in or near downtown, granted it's designed in such a way as to not become a vacuum - a dead space only sporadically made alive.

Here's my thinking:

IF
- we can build it in a 'discreet' (i.e not vacuum-y) manner that doesn't create a rip in the urban fabric (ground-level active storefronts a must)
- it doesn't require huge sums of public monies (though I don't think it's realistic to expect it to be free either)
- it's designed in such a way that people are encouraged to linger.

Then I see it as little harm, but sizeable benefits:

- a large event space suitable for rallies, concerts and hockey matches near the core
- no need for large quantities of parking because of transit and schedule-compatible parking lots downtown
- central and accessible to people throughout the region
- generates activity at certain businesses (like bars and restaurants, at least for the nights it's being used)

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Buggys

At the TMP Open House around a year ago now, the city said the current park n ride at Baseline is to be removed. I can't open a lot of pdfs on my phone here, but my memory says map 3 at thus link has no park n ride at Baseline: http://documents.ottawa.ca/en/node/5836

Thanks for pointing this out! In the 2031 Affordable Network the Baseline P&R is still staying though so there would be some time to find an alternative location.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

True, much better than Kanata but that still means everybody is on transit at the same time, whether 2 or 10 stops.

And the weather is much nicer during football season than hockey season so not so many will walk when it is -20 versus +20.

You look at this picture and you see that the walk from LeBreton Station would be much shorter than most CTC parking lots and Bayview's walk won't be a whole lot longer. Plus, you get to experience the sights and sounds of the City, you have some buildings possibly blocking the wind (depending on positioning), you have other destinations other than your car. At CTC, your stuck in traffic for 30 minutes near the arena, you park and walk in a windy, desolate parking lot to the arena.



http://www.westsideaction.com/lebett...s-go-marching/

In terms of proposal, they're not going to just throw in a stadium with a few retailers/restaurants on the ground. This is a competition and a chance to build a better version of the Kanata site vision; they\re gonna go all out.

Someone mentioned something about the Molson Centre and how it had a limited positive impact on downtown MTL. Remember that the Molson Centre is only 1.7 kilometers from the old Forum, so the impact wouldn't be as dramatic as moving from the Corel Centre to Downtown.

[Mr.Flintstone]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Or better yet, Edmonton. Google "Edmonton Arena District" and you'll get blown away.

Woow I hope LeBreton get a similar project.

[1overcosc]

There is a frustrating psychological effect where people often think of walking across a parking lot as being "quicker" than an equal distance walk through an urban environment. I've noticed this in Kingston where people will complain about having to park three blocks away on a side street to shop downtown, and then say they prefer parking at the suburban malls instead, even though if you measure it the walking distance from the parking spot to the store is greater in the suburban mall. (In Kingston side street parking is free, so money's not part of the equation).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Mr.Flintstone

Woow I hope LeBreton get a similar project.

Yes, in Edmonton there will be 5 light rail stops within a 5 minute walk including one right at the arena. We often seem to be content with second rate. We pretty well have a blank canvas so we should dream and expect the very best.

[S-Man]

The Lebreton stadium plan is fraught with how's and what-if's. Not to say it isn't promising, but execution is key, as is area planning.

Wellington/JAM Parkway is completely jammed during afternoon rush hours, as is Albert/Scott and the Chaudière Bridge. That's a planning consideration for vehicles (how many spots/access where? etc.) that many would say could be overcome by the better transit connections in the immediate vicinity. Fair enough.

I'm really not particularly passionate about this plan one way or another, so I won't go on. That said, I think a few people are being a little misleading in describing the distances to bars on Preston/Bank/Elgin.

You don't hit the Preston bars until south of the Queensway - that would be a huge hike, and the climate in Ottawa isn't sunny, dry and 23 Celsius all year round. Same goes for Bank and Elgin, though those would have amore convenient transit connection.

Lets face it - if you're walking to grab a drink at any of those places after a game, you walked there and are on your way home the same way.

[phil235]

[QUOTE=defishel;6842168]But has Montreal's stadium contributed to economic growth for their core? It's not near any businesses, and is kind of on the edge of the downtown anyway, in an area that is now seeing some highrises go up, but is largely a part of the city people don't go to unless it's to their office building.

How are we so sure that the city won't lose money building a new stadium here, and that there won't be a lot of problems arising afterwards?QUOTE]

I think that you are misreading the studies. While there is a debate as to whether a stadium or arena contributes to the economic growth of a region generally, there is no debate as to whether it contributes to its immediate area.

The Bell Centre has absolutely contributed to that area of downtown Montreal. There is a massive condo tower and a major office tower going up on the site itself. Rene-Levesque is in the process of being lined by major condo developments. Peel Street has been revitalized. There are any number of new restaurants in the immediate area. It can be debated as to how much of the development is directly driven by the arena, but there is no question that area of downtown has blossomed in the years since the arena was built.

Not sure what you mean that the City would "lose money" on an arena. I don't think anyone expects that the City would own and operate the arena. At best, there would be some type of contribution in the form of tax relief etc.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by S-Man

You don't hit the Preston bars until south of the Queensway - that would be a huge hike, and the climate in Ottawa isn't sunny, dry and 23 Celsius all year round. Same goes for Bank and Elgin, though those would have amore convenient transit connection.

Lets face it - if you're walking to grab a drink at any of those places after a game, you walked there and are on your way home the same way.

I was more suggesting that Preston is an established strip that would likely develop northwards if there was development on the Flats.

But the bars on Preston start at Gladstone, which is 10 blocks from Albert, and their are lots of restaurants north of that, as well as a pub at Somerset. Those are all an easy walk. It's less than a kilometre down Preston - 10-15 minutes.

Elgin is quite far, but with a better route, Sparks would be quite walkable as well.

[1overcosc]

The city is in the process of rezoning Preston north of Somerset into a traditional mainstreet (instead of a residential street), so we might see Preston's bar/restaurant scene extend northwards.

[waterloowarrior]

Besides Hintonburg, Preston, Somerset and Sparks, there will also be the Windmill development, the Escarpment area district plan, Bayview station redevelopment, and mixed use development in the Flats itself.

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa has not developed any new traditional main streets since before World War II. I hope they can be successful but they have not demonstrated an ability to do so. The closest we have come to this is the Lansdowne development but this is very modest. It is going to be a major challenge for our planners and developers to pull this off and make it successful without compromises and the temptation to let the cheap big box model to creep back in.

[OTSkyline]

To the people complaining that there are no bars or entertainment currently in the area; I think that's the whole point! The whole point is that we have a lively east downtown (with Elgin, Bank, Rideau and the Byward Market), a lively west (with Westboro, Richmond etc..) and to a smaller degree a lively central south (with Preson) I think this is the opportunity to build a true "Downtown West" where everyone living in downtown (west of Bank), Lebreton Flats, Chaudieres Island, Chinatown and Hintonburg can be drawn to.

I think it would spur a lot of development in that part of town. For me, right now, I wouldn't want to buy a condo or live in that part of town because there is no lively neighbourhood or main street with restaurants, shops, bars, pubs, etc... What do people living at Lebreton do now? Walk the 3km's to Byward?

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

To the people complaining that there are no bars or entertainment currently in the area; I think that's the whole point!

Also, how much bars, restaurants, and entertainment were in Kanata before the Sens got there? I wasn't in Ottawa back then, but I imagine there was nothing and that the Sens brought bars, restaurants, hotels and businesses to a part of town that would've otherwise been desolate. I imagine the same will happen to the west side of downtown.

[rocketphish]

Ottawa doesn't need, nor can it afford, a new NHL arena

James Gordon, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: December 15, 2014, Last Updated: December 15, 2014 9:41 AM EST

People sure are excited about the possibility of a shiny new hockey arena for the Ottawa Senators, and why not? Imagine packing up at the office downtown, taking a short train ride, and then walking through the doors of a state-of-the-art, hyper-expensive cathedral to Canada’s Game! It’s the show! NHL hockey, baby! Money is no object!

There’s only one problem with the whole idea: Ottawa can’t afford, nor does it need, a new rink.

Let’s be clear up front. If the Ottawa Senators, who are “actively considering” a proposal to partner up with private investors and make a bid to develop part of the NCC lands at the LeBreton Flats, want to build a new rink at their own expense (that is, without a dime of taxpayers’ money for grants, financing, or sweetheart leases at a publicly-owned rink), and if there are no better plans for public lands on offer, that’s their prerogative. A beautiful new building with no strings attached? How could you argue against that?

There are a couple of reasons that kind of bid is highly unlikely, however.

The first is that the Senators aren’t exactly flush with cash, unless something has changed drastically in the last year or so. Owner Eugene Melnyk claims to have suffered a cumulative cash loss of $110 million operating the team, and the franchise either can’t or won’t spend on a competitive player salary budget. In a league where the top teams pony up close to $70 million, the Senators are second-last at $55.8 million (according to capgeek.com). The odds of them finding the $450 million or so needed to build a modern arena on their own seem fairly low.

Second is the fact that the Sens have already made it clear they “feel very strongly that this could only be possible with strong community support,” which, to anyone familiar with new sports infrastructure, sounds a lot like a euphemism for a handout.

The craziest part of all, though, is that there seems to be a great deal of momentum in this city behind the idea of replacing an NHL-calibre arena that was built in 1996. Even if it took 10 years to construct a new building, the Canadian Tire Centre would still be just 28 years old. It isn’t a poorly-planned dump like Rexall Place in Edmonton, built in 1974, or the New York Islanders’ 1972 Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum, which should have been razed long ago. A modern arena, with proper maintenance, should last at least 40 years.

I’ve covered NHL games in 13 different rinks, and I can say without reservation that the CTC stacks up well against all of them. Not only that, the Senators continue to sink millions into it for upgrades. I don’t hear Boston clamouring to replace the TD Garden (built in 1995), Vancouver to replace the Rogers Arena (1995), Montreal to replace the Bell Centre (1996) or Washington to replace the Verizon Centre (1997), and those are metropolises with populations in the multimillions.

Ottawa is a one million-person city that isn’t even a superb hockey market. I have a great deal of affection for Senators fans, who have hung tough through a lot of dark days, but they vote with their wallets. Attendance plummets when the team isn’t winning and that, more than location, is what drives sales here. The Senators saw positive ripples for years after the team went to the 2007 Stanley Cup final, and the franchise will be successful again if and when the on-ice product turns a corner.

Which brings us to the real reason many in this city believe we need a new half-billion-dollar building: it’s sorta annoying that the current rink is kinda far for some people.

In a meeting with the Citizen’s editorial board this week, Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird, who also oversees the NCC, quipped: “I’ve travelled quite a bit and I’ve never seen a major sports arena in the middle of nowhere.” That sentiment is shared by many in this town.

Except the premise is wrong. This isn’t the late 1990s anymore, when the Palladium was surrounded by farmers’ fields and not much else. Housing continues to go up on both sides of the highway, and a major shopping centre opened nearby recently. More importantly, the area is now serviced by a four-lane (five if you count the bus lanes) superhighway that keeps traffic moving at a decent clip.

The plan behind the Palladium was to eventually build up around it. How does it make sense to ditch the rink now that the people and infrastructure are finally there to support it?

Public dollars will be spent at the Flats, but they should be spent on a national institution all Canadians can be proud of — not in support of privately-owned infrastructure this city already has. The federal government missed a tremendous opportunity to back a purpose-built science and technology museum there, but there’s time yet to get it right.

James Gordon is a former Citizen sports editor who is now a member of the editorial board.
Twitter.com/James_J_Gordon

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-new-nhl-arena

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

We just need to be very careful where we place this. As I've said before, large complexes like casinos and arenas are great at generating sporadic but very intense activity, but they are also terrible at having a good street presence

Also, city governments ten to be really terrible at demanding it.

You get what you approve. You don't want it? Don't approve it. Pretty simple.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by grooveduster

Or if it was a park, it would really have to be on par with the likes of Central Park, or Mont Royal...a real gathering place.

Ottawans don't "gather" in general, and it's the rare city indeed where people "gather" in big spaces, other than for state occasions, revolutions, and riots.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by phil235

Preston Street is already flourishing, so there is already something nearby.

As barren as Lebreton is, there is no question it will be more walkable. As it stands now, the CTC is separated from the north side of the highway by a bridge that bans pedestrians.

As long as the NCC is in charge, there's always plenty of question to that effect.