How widespread are the homeless/mental health/addiction issues in your city/province?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Wigs

giallo, I'd argue that's one thing missing from today's Policing. The "beat cops" that knew so many unfortunate, destitute people in their district, many on a first name basis, because they walked it every day they worked. Pro active policing. Having a constant presence.

Whistling Smith knew the prostitutes, junkies, homeless, etc.

We don't have beat cops but they are down there all the time and know lots of the locals.

The only stories I've heard from VPD officers is that many younger ones start with good intentions and all become cynical after a certain amount of time in the DTES.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Wigs

giallo, I'd argue that's one thing missing from today's Policing. The "beat cops" that knew so many unfortunate, destitute people in their district, many on a first name basis, because they walked it every day they worked. Pro active policing. Having a constant presence.

Whistling Smith knew the prostitutes, junkies, homeless, etc.

This is actually a very prescient observation.

It's become extremely rare to see cops "walking the beat" on city streets. This is true in both Canada and the US.

Ever notice how policing these days seems to be mostly done via a "swoop in, swoop out" approach?

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is actually a very prescient observation.

It's become extremely rare to see cops "walking the beat" on city streets. This is true in both Canada and the US.

Ever notice how policing these days seems to be mostly done via a "swoop in, swoop out" approach?

reactive policing. I don't get it. Leave the neighbourhood for dead until a robbery, shooting or murder happens.

Also like Truenorth said when the cops don't even live in the city they are policing. Witnessed this first hand in Buffalo where Cops that reside in suburbs don't give a shit about the inner city communities in their district. Just a pay cheque to these types.
The same type of cops that cracked (75 year old lifelong civil rights protestor )Martin Gugino's head open right in front of Buffalo City Hall during BLM/post George Floyd protests in 2020.
https://youtu.be/FoFFUlAWr50

[niwell]

Also look at his uniform. While he has the utility belt and a sidearm Smith looks a lot less imposing than the kit of most modern police. The average Toronto Police Services officer looks almost paramilitary these days - ditto cops in other North American jurisdictions. I think these things do make a difference when it comes to community interaction. Hell, I was in Berlin recently and police look substantially less intimidating than the ones I see in Toronto, even if the latter don't seem to be doing very much!


I can't speak to the DTES in particular as it's kind of it's own beast. But generally these types of areas have gotten worse as truly affordable housing - even if it sucked - has disappeared. I've spoken about this before, but someone doing hard drugs in a shitty SRO building they can afford on whatever social services they get is going to cause a lot less trouble than that person in the streets. And probably has a much better chance of rehabilitation should they actually want to do so.

[Wigs]

niwell, great point.

The militarization of Police in North America is a worrying trend. Their kit is intimidating.

A few years ago in Niagara the NRP spent ~$300k on an armored vehicle. They call them ARV "armoured rescue vehicle" (smh)

The average Niagara resident is like "What kind of terrorist events do you think take place in Niagara to warrant this?"
When BLM/post George Floyd protests happened, a jurisdiction I think in Nova Scotia maybe? immediately halted the purchase of such a vehicle.

I've said this probably a dozen times on SSP, but Canada really needs a nationwide Finland-style "Housing First" strategy to get as many people off the streets first, and then deal with their substance abuse, mental health/trauma issues once they are housed.

Paying hundreds of thousands in extra policing to dismantle tent cities does nothing to fix Canada's inner city homeless problem.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by giallo

Yeah, it's been bad since the 70s, but even back in the 50s, my mom was told to avoid the area by my grandparents. It's heyday ended in the 40s, and it's been a slow death since then.

Here's a documentary about a well known local cop on the DTES beat in the 70s.

• Video Link

Whistling Smith is great.

We've lost so many things since that film came out:

- the beat cop
- an NFB as a Canadian cultural icon
- substance addiction issues being mostly alcohol, rather than increasingly more lethal forms of opioids
- those 4 blocks of Hastings being a place where normal people would still go to shop

"How far we done fell" as Bunk said in the Wire.

[Acajack]

You guys make some good points about the militarization of police.

Think about what I said about "swoop in, swoop out".

That's often how the military operates these days.

Swoop in suddenly and carry out the mission.

Then get the hell out of Dodge. "Exfiltration" as they call it.

Not much community relationship building involved there.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I've said this probably a dozen times on SSP, but Canada really needs a nationwide Finland-style "Housing First" strategy to get as many people off the streets first, and then deal with their substance abuse, mental health/trauma issues once they are housed.

Paying hundreds of thousands in extra policing to dismantle tent cities does nothing to fix Canada's inner city homeless problem.

Hear, hear!!

[Hawrylyshyn]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is actually a very prescient observation.

It's become extremely rare to see cops "walking the beat" on city streets. This is true in both Canada and the US.

Ever notice how policing these days seems to be mostly done via a "swoop in, swoop out" approach?

I think part of the reason is the poor public reception that police now receive -- why "walk the beat" when they're constantly told 1. They make people uncomfortable, 2. People (eg. BLM) don't want them there, 3. It'll likely be made into a race issue if a cop tried to get to speak to/ask questions to those in the community (especially POC)

Why be in the community, when the community constantly screams that they don't want them?

It's a viscous cycle.

EDIT: I agree, put money into getting homeless places to live, not constantly dismantling tent cities (unless there is a genuine concern with one, eg. right beside a school)

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by niwell

Also look at his uniform. While he has the utility belt and a sidearm Smith looks a lot less imposing than the kit of most modern police. The average Toronto Police Services officer looks almost paramilitary these days - ditto cops in other North American jurisdictions. I think these things do make a difference when it comes to community interaction. Hell, I was in Berlin recently and police look substantially less intimidating than the ones I see in Toronto, even if the latter don't seem to be doing very much!

Remember when police drove mostly white cars and had lighter blue uniforms?

Now they drive black cars and dress like SWAT teams of the 1980s.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hawrylyshyn

I think part of the reason is the poor public reception that police now receive -- why "walk the beat" when they're constantly told 1. They make people uncomfortable, 2. People (eg. BLM) don't want them there, 3. It'll likely be made into a race issue if a cop tried to get to speak to/ask questions to those in the community (especially POC)

Why be in the community, when the community constantly screams that they don't want them?

It's a viscous cycle.

EDIT: I agree, put money into getting homeless places to live, not constantly dismantling tent cities (unless there is a genuine concern with one, eg. right beside a school)

It's extremely harmful and even dangerous for society when cops come to see the areas they patrol and hostile, enemy territory.

Though I am not naive. I know it happens, and that it is increasingly common even.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Hawrylyshyn

It's a viscous cycle.

I prefer to refer to it as an unctuous cycle, myself.

[Coldrsx]

'loss of the beat cop'

THIS!

When I moved Downtown Edmonton in 2005 and working there until 2020, I would often run into beat officers over various years and they were truly community ambassadors.

They knew business owner names, stopped by to say hi/check-in, but also knew many of us residents who walked to work each day or stopped in at their coffee shop.

BUT, the best part of all of this was that they knew the names of and interacted at a human level (vast VAST majority of the time) with those marginalized, on our streets and needing (or not) assistance.

The beat program was dissolved over time in pursuit of 'new data driven resource allocation' which created vast zones or regions for officers to cover, thereby creating a disconnect with all of the above and so inherently it became far more aggressive/responsive versus empathetic and friendly. Similar to how Edmonton removed 'community stations' and created literal and figurative 'divisions'.

Alas.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

'loss of the beat cop'

THIS!

When I moved Downtown Edmonton in 2005 and working there until 2020, I would often run into beat officers over various years and they were truly community ambassadors.

They knew business owner names, stopped by to say hi/check-in, but also knew many of us residents who walked to work each day or stopped in at their coffee shop.

BUT, the best part of all of this was that they knew the names of and interacted at a human level (vast VAST majority of the time) with those marginalized, on our streets and needing (or not) assistance.

The beat program was dissolved over time in pursuit of 'new data driven resource allocation' which created vast zones or regions for officers to cover, thereby creating a disconnect with all of the above and so inherently it became far more aggressive/responsive versus empathetic and friendly. Similar to how Edmonton removed 'community stations' and created literal and figurative 'divisions'.

Alas.

The "City Stat" era of Policing obsessed with Data (and manipulation of data) as shown in The Wire is less effective than the 'Beat Cop' era.

Most on here would agree, I think.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Wigs

The "City Stat" era of Policing obsessed with Data (and manipulation of data) as shown in The Wire is less effective than the 'Beat Cop' era.

Most on here would agree, I think.

I think this is one aspect where Canadian and American historical experiences diverge.

The US like us had more of a "beat cop" thing going on in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s, but unlike us this wasn't really a golden age in terms of urban civility for them.

It was actually the "nadir" for almost all of their cities.

So "beat cops" didn't really help matters down there, and for whatever reasons (related or not to a different approach to policing) things started to improve for them greatly in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Canadian cities aren't all the same of course but I think that overall at least in the past couple of years things have gotten worse in almost all of them in terms of crime and disorder.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Whistling Smith is great.

We've lost so many things since that film came out:

- the beat cop
- an NFB as a Canadian cultural icon
- substance addiction issues being mostly alcohol, rather than increasingly more lethal forms of opioids
- those 4 blocks of Hastings being a place where normal people would still go to shop

"How far we done fell" as Bunk said in the Wire.

Agreed! We need to return to that. I bet there are anecdotal stories like that across many cities, but this kind of "policing" is fantastic IMHO.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by giallo

Here's a documentary about a well known local cop on the DTES beat in the 70s.

• Video Link

Bump!

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think this is one aspect where Canadian and American historical experiences diverge.

The US like us had more of a "beat cop" thing going on in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s, but unlike us this wasn't really a golden age in terms of urban civility for them.

It was actually the "nadir" for almost all of their cities.

So "beat cops" didn't really help matters down there, and for whatever reasons (related or not to a different approach to policing) things started to improve for them greatly in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Canadian cities aren't all the same of course but I think that overall at least in the past couple of years things have gotten worse in almost all of them in terms of crime and disorder.

You can't just draw a direct line of causation between beat cops, or lack thereof, and the nadir of American cities. There are many other things to be considered overall in a rapidly changing world. How can you say that the integration of local policing and community involvement is a negative?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The US like us had more of a "beat cop" thing going on in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s, but unlike us this wasn't really a golden age in terms of urban civility for them.

It was actually the "nadir" for almost all of their cities.

So "beat cops" didn't really help matters down there...

What a minute. I've always been under the impression that beat cops were common throughout the 20th century, but gradually decreased as patrol cars expanded and became the norm. I thought that foot patrols began to be discontinued in the 1960s, and by the 1970s were mostly non-existent.

It's always hazardous drawing correlations, but I would have thought that the mostly likely one to draw would have been the rise of urban crime being concomitant with the lack of foot patrols, i.e. that beat cops did indeed have an effect on crime.

Obviously there were any number of other factors at play, but my impression was that the lack of foot patrols led to an increasing isolation between police and troubled communities that could be argued to have contributed to the lawlessness.

[Architype]

I suppose our beat cops have been replaced by modern methods of surveillance cameras, and communication, etc. The trouble with such technology is that it's not human interaction, but rather a method or excuse to avoid it. Anonymity encourages and facilitates crime.