Atlantic Canada airport thread

[sailor734]

Slightly late arrival and early departure for same day business travelers to Halifax. I wonder if it has to do with keeping flight crew duty hours under the maximum?

[Bishop2047]

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7197464

Little bit here on the Charlottetown airport expansion. Work is expected to be completed in 2027.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Might this be the future of Air Canada service from YSJ?

https://www.cp24.com/news/air-canada...rloo-1.6777691

That could be a pretty great service for New Brunswick, especially since it would meant greater sharing of airport between the three cities.

Could even make keeping all three airports more viable and profitable for AC. Routes like Moncton->Fredericton->Saint John-> Boston could be possible, or Saint John->Fredericton->Moncton->New York or even further, think Atlanta, Paris, Frankfurt, Dublin. It makes the idea of flight sharing between Saint John and Fredericton incredibly simple and straight forward, it was as easy as taking a bus.

Collectively, New Brunswick’s three biggest metro areas have a larger population than the Halifax Metro Area. Shuttle busses could even help make transatlantic flight’s possible one day for New Brunswickers.

But we first need a strategic coordination between the province, the municipalities, the federal government, and the airlines that actually comes up with solutions to improve tourism in New Brunswick by increasing the amount of flights in and out of the province. As it stands, there’s the wrong type of competition between New Brunswick’s three airports, and essentially zero coordination in terms of actually getting New Brunswickers onto a flights at an airport outside of there they live.

Busses and coordination between the airports and airlines could go along way in solving this problem. A shared Fredericton, Saint John airport should still be the long term priority. YSJ and YFC could be profitable endeavours as mainly cargo airports with very few non private passenger flights, while the new airport could better compete with Moncton and Halifax, in the right way!

I’d still like to see more coordination between airports within Atlantic Canada, flights that start in St. John’s, Moncton, or Halifax, that make a stop in southern NB on the way to New York or Boston to pick up more passengers.

And when it comes to busses, while we really do need better shuttle services to get people to airports, I’d say we need a bus to Bangor, Boston, or Montreal just as much, if not more.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Not to mention if Halifax is your final destination you can add $130-$160 to those costs for cab fare from YHZ to downtown and back......and you will have no transportation while you are there.

There is always Halifax Transit #320 bus from YHZ to D/T Halifax for $4.25 O/W.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Flair Airlines. They are our best hope at the moment. Air Canada doesn’t care about Saint John at all, and I think they cancelled those flights just to make sure their employees didn’t get full use of their flight benefits. There’s over 300 Air Canada employees in Saint John, far more per capita than most cities due to the call centre.

If we want flights to the US to work, we’re going to have to do more route sharing with Fredericton and other regional airports on selected routes. Pushing for a Fredericton-Saint John airport would be even better. Imagine flights from St. John’s, Halifax, Moncton, Sydney, that made a stop at New Brunswick International Airport on the way to Boston, New York, Atlanta, etc.

This bush league $500 round trip minimum flights to Halifax are the least thing Saint John needs to bring more tourists to the region, it’s basically exclusively aimed at business travellers and Saint Johnners/KVers that want to go to Halifax. Great for James Mullinger, mostly pointless for most people in SJ that would like to get to Halifax cheaply.

Halifax has US pre-clearence. Why would a US bound flight from YHZ stop in NB first?

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Pascan operated briefly out of the Moncton airport, perhaps 7-8 years ago.

I forget their routing, but, I think they flew to Bathurst and Montreal, and, perhaps somewhere else. All I recall is that they were very expensive, unpopular and didn't last a year.

Pascan did YYT-YQM and YQM-YQB flights in 2013. The flights started in October of that year and were cancelled by December. Load factors were <30%.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...city-1.2453313

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Halifax has US pre-clearence. Why would a US bound flight from YHZ stop in NB first?

Bingo. Puddle jumping also slows things down. This could be critical if your ultimate plan is to make connections in Newark.

Finally, you waste a lot of fuel in landings/takeoffs, and, then there is also the extra added airport landing/usage fees. Adding an intermediate destination would ultimately be slower, more expensive and less environmentally friendly than any direct routing.

Such routes do exist, but, there has to be a really good reason to do things this way.

[q12]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Collectively, New Brunswick’s three biggest metro areas have a larger population than the Halifax Metro Area.

This is incorrect.

Using the latest estimates from 2022 the Halifax Metro was 480,582.

Moncton's Metro: 171,608
Saint John's Metro: 135,622
Fredericton: 116,159
N.B. cities total : 423,389

Source: Statistics Canada Population estimates, July 1 Release date: 2023-01-11 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1710013501

[sailor734]

Flights with actual "stops" (vs connections where you change planes) seem very rare these days. I suspect for the reasons enumerated above.
In fact, the last time I can remember being on one was when AC used to fly a Toronto-Fredericton-SJ triangle route. I'm sure that was 30+ years ago.....I can remember how annoying it was coming home from a long trip late at night when all you wanted to do was get home. You could practically see YSJ and they landed in YFC, taxied and then sat for 20 minutes while people got off and on before leaving for SJ.

Before that, if you go way back, the AC flight from Boston used to stop in Yarmouth on the way to SJ. That was even worse as everybody had to get off (and all luggage had to be unloaded) and clear customs in Yarmouth but at least it wasn't late at night.

[magee_b]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Flights with actual "stops" (vs connections where you change planes) seem very rare these days. I suspect for the reasons enumerated above.
In fact, the last time I can remember being on one was when AC used to fly a Toronto-Fredericton-SJ triangle route. I'm sure that was 30+ years ago.....I can remember how annoying it was coming home from a long trip late at night when all you wanted to do was get home. You could practically see YSJ and they landed in YFC, taxied and then sat for 20 minutes while people got off and on before leaving for SJ.

Before that, if you go way back, the AC flight from Boston used to stop in Yarmouth on the way to SJ. That was even worse as everybody had to get off (and all luggage had to be unloaded) and clear customs in Yarmouth but at least it wasn't late at night.

I actually think "stops" or "same-plane-service" are an interesting model for Atlantic Canadian airports and LCC/ULCCs that are looking to fill planes and broaden their network. I don't know how the actual economics works out on it though (as stated above, fuel for takeoffs/landing fees/etc add to financial costs on a route).

Lynx was doing it on YFC-YYZ-YYC (you stayed on the plane in YYZ), and WestJet used to do it back when they were more of a LCC/Point-to-Point carrier on their YQM-YHM-YEG route. Porter does it on Q400 flights going to YOW that then happen to continue onto YTZ. And I know it did happen for a while (maybe still does?) for flights on Porter from YTZ to YYT where you could book it and stay on the same plane from YTZ-YOW-YHZ-YYT.

To me it seems to make some sense for carriers who have a single plane-type in their fleet and are not offering connections (ie. Flair / insert next ULCC startup here) and who want to fill the plane. It does not make sense for carriers who can operate an effective hub & spoke model with a fleet that is right-sized for various markets (AC/Westjet).

But back to my original point about it making sense for Atlantic Canada. Can Flair fill a 189 seat plane from YSJ to YYC 4-5 days a week? Not likely. Could it fill a 189 seat plane from YSJ that stopped at YYZ to unload/pickup and then carried on to YYC? much more likely, as it combines passenger loads between multiple destinations. The issue is that very few airlines in Canada can / and are able to offer this. And realistically its only those non-hub-and-spoke ULCC / startup airlines (or smaller regionals like PAL or PASCAN) who would consider it. And due to US customs rules, only would work for domestic Canadian routes.

[MonctonRad]

Good points.

One of the Porter flights to Ottawa from YQM carries on to Billy Bishop in Toronto.

The PAL flight from YQM to St. John's stops in Deer Lake.

In both cases, I suspect that the intermediate stop is to boost passenger load which improves the financial viability of the service. This of course is counterbalanced by increased fuel usage, landing fees and inconvenience. The bean counters would have to sharpen their pencils to decide when this makes sense and when it doesn't. All things being equal, I imagine the calculus leans heavily towards direct routings.

The other circumstance when intermediate stops makes sense is when an airline is servicing remote and underserved airports like in northern Canada. One single plane might have to make 4-5 stops on a single routing to service small communities that otherwise would have no service at all.

[sailor734]

When Porter had a Toronto flight out of YSJ I believe there was a stop in Ottawa. Not 100% sure but I think it stopped in Ottawa both ways. The stop was one of the reasons I never considered Porter the odd time I was going just to Toronto.

Still, a service with a stop is infinitely better than no service at all.

[magee_b]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Good points.

One of the Porter flights to Ottawa from YQM carries on to Billy Bishop in Toronto.

The PAL flight from YQM to St. John's stops in Deer Lake.

In both cases, I suspect that the intermediate stop is to boost passenger load which improves the financial viability of the service. This of course is counterbalanced by increased fuel usage, landing fees and inconvenience. The bean counters would have to sharpen their pencils to decide when this makes sense and when it doesn't. All things being equal, I imagine the calculus leans heavily towards direct routings.

The other circumstance when intermediate stops makes sense is when an airline is servicing remote and underserved airports like in northern Canada. One single plane might have to make 4-5 stops on a single routing to service small communities that otherwise would have no service at all.

And this point is where I think Atlantic Canadian airports could work with airlines to figure out which intermediate stop - final destination pairs could work best. But need to satisfy the bean counters in the end. I'm a YSJ flyer (because thats where I need to get in/out of) but also fairly realistic in what I think is ultimately possible there. Creative thinking and pursuing of those sorts of "one-stop-fight" possibilities, would open up some new destinations and help re-capture some lost traffic.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Might this be the future of Air Canada service from YSJ?

https://www.cp24.com/news/air-canada...rloo-1.6777691

This is actually quite interesting I must say!!

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by homebody

This is actually quite interesting I must say!!

Would be even better if you could clear security before you got on the bus (at the smaller and presumably less busy airport) and then just debark directly into the airside of the terminal.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by q12

This is incorrect.

Using the latest estimates from 2022 the Halifax Metro was 480,582.

Moncton's Metro: 171,608
Saint John's Metro: 135,622
Fredericton: 116,159
N.B. cities total : 423,389

Source: Statistics Canada Population estimates, July 1 Release date: 2023-01-11 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1710013501

Okay, I stand corrected. Nonetheless, the numbers are very much comparable. As is NB’s 800,000 vs NS’s 1.1 million.

NB’s airports should be doing better.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by magee_b

I actually think "stops" or "same-plane-service" are an interesting model for Atlantic Canadian airports and LCC/ULCCs that are looking to fill planes and broaden their network. I don't know how the actual economics works out on it though (as stated above, fuel for takeoffs/landing fees/etc add to financial costs on a route).

Lynx was doing it on YFC-YYZ-YYC (you stayed on the plane in YYZ), and WestJet used to do it back when they were more of a LCC/Point-to-Point carrier on their YQM-YHM-YEG route. Porter does it on Q400 flights going to YOW that then happen to continue onto YTZ. And I know it did happen for a while (maybe still does?) for flights on Porter from YTZ to YYT where you could book it and stay on the same plane from YTZ-YOW-YHZ-YYT.

To me it seems to make some sense for carriers who have a single plane-type in their fleet and are not offering connections (ie. Flair / insert next ULCC startup here) and who want to fill the plane. It does not make sense for carriers who can operate an effective hub & spoke model with a fleet that is right-sized for various markets (AC/Westjet).

But back to my original point about it making sense for Atlantic Canada. Can Flair fill a 189 seat plane from YSJ to YYC 4-5 days a week? Not likely. Could it fill a 189 seat plane from YSJ that stopped at YYZ to unload/pickup and then carried on to YYC? much more likely, as it combines passenger loads between multiple destinations. The issue is that very few airlines in Canada can / and are able to offer this. And realistically its only those non-hub-and-spoke ULCC / startup airlines (or smaller regionals like PAL or PASCAN) who would consider it. And due to US customs rules, only would work for domestic Canadian routes.

That WestJet flight you mentioned actually originated in YYT. I tried that one time going from YYT to YVR; YYT-YQM-YHM-YEG; then change planes for YVR. It was a never again option for the sake of saving a few $$$.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Halifax has US pre-clearence. Why would a US bound flight from YHZ stop in NB first?

To pick up more people. Might make more sense for St. John’s, Moncton, Fredericton, and Saint John, then for Halifax.


St. John’s -> Fredericton -> New York

is a lot better than

St. John’s -> Toronto -> New York, innit?

If we’re going to tax carbon and put a price of a pollution, shouldn’t we at least try and regulate the airlines to promote more direct routes combining regional populations than have 90% of flights from Atlantic Canada have a connection in Montreal or Toronto first? The flight to Toronto all the way from St. John’s to get to New York is pretty damn wasteful. Stopping in Saint John, Fredericton, or Moncton on the way would be preferable to everyone involved. Shouldn’t be that difficult to plan out and make it work.

[q12]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

The flight to Toronto all the way from St. John’s to get to New York is pretty damn wasteful. Stopping in Saint John, Fredericton, or Moncton on the way would be preferable to everyone involved. Shouldn’t be that difficult to plan out and make it work.

People in St. John's can already connect through Halifax with a well-timed connection. And they benefit from U.S. preclearance in Halifax when making the connection.

Air Canada





Air Canada/United

[Nashe]

Is that flight full, Q12?