Atlantic Canada airport thread

[Lobster chucker]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I thought YSJ was 3 a day with 4 in the summer?
The Beech 1900 was actually configured for 18 I think......19 and up requires a flight attendant

I think you’re right. They had the first officer come back to do the briefings. That actually makes it closer to 1500 flights a year

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Lobster chucker

I think you’re right. They had the first officer come back to do the briefings. That actually makes it closer to 1500 flights a year

I actually enjoyed flying on those little 1900's. With the open cockpit if you took the front RH seat on the early morning flight you got a lovely view of the sunrise. ....and I always enjoyed being able to watch the landing through the windshield.

The only plane that's more fun is flying Cape Air's 402's when you get the co pilot's seat.

https://www.capeair.com/about_us/cape-air-fleet.html

[q12]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I actually enjoyed flying on those little 1900's. With the open cockpit if you took the front RH seat on the early morning flight you got a lovely view of the sunrise. ....and I always enjoyed being able to watch the landing through the windshield.

The only plane that's more fun is flying Cape Air's 402's when you get the co pilot's seat.

https://www.capeair.com/about_us/cape-air-fleet.html

Here's a review of the Saint John - Halifax (Air Canada Express operated by EVAS at the time) route back in 2018







https://princeoftravel.com/reviews/a...hn-to-halifax/

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I actually enjoyed flying on those little 1900's. With the open cockpit if you took the front RH seat on the early morning flight you got a lovely view of the sunrise. ....and I always enjoyed being able to watch the landing through the windshield.

I flew on one of those exactly once, a last minute substitution on an Air Canada flight from Montreal to Moncton perhaps 15 years ago. I actually sat in that seat and had a good view of the horizon bouncing around on final approach into YQM. It made me nervous.

And, I have actually flown (taken the yolk of) a plane before (with a friend who is a pilot).

[TitleRequired]

Out of curiosity, I reviewed westjet link, a feeder airline in BC that has a similar puddlejump arrangement like yhz<->ysj.

Comox to Vancouver is as low as 159$ one way, tax and fees included, with tiered pricing.
Nanaimo to Vancouver is as low as 89$ one way, ditto.

Tiered pricing has significant restrictions, and baggage fees on cheaper fares. The higher fares are fully refundable, name change etc... Flight durations are on the same scope.

This provides an additional datapoint on where the pricing could be. Non-tiered pricing can exclude price sensitive customers, at the detriment of lower yields.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

Out of curiosity, I reviewed westjet link, a feeder airline in BC that has a similar puddlejump arrangement like yhz<->ysj.

Comox to Vancouver is as low as 159$ one way, tax and fees included, with tiered pricing.
Nanaimo to Vancouver is as low as 89$ one way, ditto.

Tiered pricing has significant restrictions, and baggage fees on cheaper fares. The higher fares are fully refundable, name change etc... Flight durations are on the same scope.

This provides an additional datapoint on where the pricing could be. Non-tiered pricing can exclude price sensitive customers, at the detriment of lower yields.

Exactly what we need to know. There’s no reason SJ to Halifax should cost $500+ round trip. Almost everyone will drive if they can at those prices. This isn’t what the Saint John Region needs… we need new connections on budget carriers to places like Montreal, Boston, and New York.

Our best hope remains Flair Airlines. The only budget carrier that’s stuck with YSJ, unlike Porter, and Swoop.

It’s in all Canadians best interests for these ultra low cost carriers to stay in business.

Saint John’s airport won’t be saved by a Porter connection to Boston via Toronto. If Porter devised a route that went Toronto-> Saint John/Fredericton -> Boston, then they might actually be on to something.

The Fredericton-> Toronto-> Boston flight might be one of the stupidest flights I’ve ever seen. You can literally drive there quicker than this flight.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Our best hope remains Flair Airlines. The only budget carrier that’s stuck with YSJ, unlike Porter, and Swoop

Porter is not a ULCC. It is a mainstream airline.

Flair is circling the drain. It will be gone by the end of the year.

Pascan is not the answer to SJ's woes.

The chances of attracting a US regional airline to YSJ are virtually nil.

Of all the options available, I would look at attempting to woo Porter back to YSJ. I think there is some growth potential there, what with hubs developing at St. Hubert and Ottawa.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Porter is not a ULCC. It is a mainstream airline.

Flair is circling the drain. It will be gone by the end of the year.

Pascan is not the answer to SJ's woes.

The chances of attracting a US regional airline to YSJ are virtually nil.

Of all the options available, I would look at attempting to woo Porter back to YSJ. I think there is some growth potential there, what with hubs developing at St. Hubert and Ottawa.

^Agree completely with those points.

If anything Porter is a semi premium product in some respects. Also, Porter is still in expansion mode and from what I've read has some capacity to add feeder routes in terms of aircraft availability. What's still holding them back is lack of pilots. Given WestJet's stated policy on eastern Canada I'd say Porter is not only YSJ's best option it's perhaps the only option as things stand right now.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Exactly what we need to know. There’s no reason SJ to Halifax should cost $500+ round trip. Almost everyone will drive if they can at those prices. This isn’t what the Saint John Region needs… we need new connections on budget carriers to places like Montreal, Boston, and New York.

Yeah, I recall the westjet ceo at the time saying their competition is the bus services, not Air Canada. A carrier with that mentality is what we need, or at least one with a functioning yield management system to fill planes or at least tiered pricing to differentiate differing customer classes; and their differing willingness to pay.

I'm more focused on flying to Europe than the US, but would agree that a connection to Boston or NY could be useful for getting pretty much anywhere in the world.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

Yeah, I recall the westjet ceo at the time saying their competition is the bus services, not Air Canada. A carrier with that mentality is what we need, or at least one with a functioning yield management system to fill planes or at least tiered pricing to differentiate differing customer classes; and their differing willingness to pay.

I'm more focused on flying to Europe than the US, but would agree that a connection to Boston or NY could be useful for getting pretty much anywhere in the world.

Connecting through NYC or Boston overseas only makes economic sense if you can get there from SJ on the same carrier or a codeshare partner.

Back in the day when AC and later Air Atlantic flew the YSJ-Boston route connecting onwards to other US destinations or overseas never made financial sense compared to going AC via TO or Montreal. That's when the whole "drive to Maine and start there thing" started to become popular. I once drove to Portland for
a trip to LA and saved literally thousands on each of 3 business class tickets compared to the AC fare

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

Yeah, I recall the westjet ceo at the time saying their competition is the bus services, not Air Canada. A carrier with that mentality is what we need, or at least one with a functioning yield management system to fill planes or at least tiered pricing to differentiate differing customer classes; and their differing willingness to pay.

I'm more focused on flying to Europe than the US, but would agree that a connection to Boston or NY could be useful for getting pretty much anywhere in the world.

An overnight bus to Boston from Saint John would be a great option, and completely realistic compared to bringing back passenger rail.

I hope we can get Porter Airlines back to YSJ, but I don't see why some people are so quick to write off Flair. If they could make a winter flight between Saint John and Orlando work, they could probably make a summer flight between Saint John and Boston or New York work as well. That type of flight could be quite the boost to tourism in Saint John, unlike the Orlando flight that was all about getting New Brunswickers down to Florida, and not vice versa.

Flair's Orlando flight was quite an impressive connection for YSJ. I for one will not be rooting against Flair Airlines... keeping my fingers crossed they stay a float and prove their naysayers wrong.

[sailor734]

As explained before by several here Flair is fine for price sensitive leisure travelers who simply want to fly point to point with no connections. I'm not sure there would be enough traffic to support a strictly YSJ to New York link in the best of circumstances. It didn't work out of either Fredericton or Moncton. I'm even more sure there wouldn't be with without the ability to connect onwards to the rest of the US or overseas on a major carrier.

As it is Flair has dropped their expansion plans for the time being and I read they were talking about concentrating more on vacation charter type flights as a survival strategy. It worked for Transat so who knows? This would seem to make any additional service out of YSJ unlikely.

[q12]

Here is the Pascan schedule:

[homebody]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

An overnight bus to Boston from Saint John would be a great option, and completely realistic compared to bringing back passenger rail.

I hope we can get Porter Airlines back to YSJ, but I don't see why some people are so quick to write off Flair. If they could make a winter flight between Saint John and Orlando work, they could probably make a summer flight between Saint John and Boston or New York work as well. That type of flight could be quite the boost to tourism in Saint John, unlike the Orlando flight that was all about getting New Brunswickers down to Florida, and not vice versa.

Flair's Orlando flight was quite an impressive connection for YSJ. I for one will not be rooting against Flair Airlines... keeping my fingers crossed they stay a float and prove their naysayers wrong.

Let’s keep hoping! Don’t let the negativity get to you. There is always that one person from Moncton that would love to see YSJ’s demise. They know who they are. They might have a wingman down here in Saint John as well. Flair is great and I have used many times with no issues! For them to say they are circling the drain what do they know. They seem to be experts in everything including airlines now!! I have never seen two more negative people. Especially sailor734. He or she must hold shares in Porter lol

[MonctonRad]

Reread my comment. Point to me anywhere within my comment where I showed any hostility to YSJ?

I was just trying to add some realism into the conversation. Sailor734 was just doing the same. If you think I'm negative about the future prospects of Flair (and I am), you should read the comments in the main Canada section about the prospects of this airline!

Within the last year, we have seen the demise of two ULCCs in Canada. The only real survivor is Flair, and it is teetering on the knifes age with threats of repossession of their aircraft. A companion airline of theirs in Australia just failed last month, leaving only two viable airlines in that country (QANTAS and Virgin).

Australia is like Canada - a physically large country and underpopulated. ULCCs only succeed in places like Europe and the US, where load factors can be high, and distances flown can be shorter.

Will Flair succeed in the future? Perhaps, but they will likely have to change their model somewhat. I see Sailor734 has indicated they may take on more charter business rather than point-to-point scheduled routes. This definitely could give them some breathing room, but will put them in conflict with Air Transat and Sunwing. We'll see.

As for Pascan, the expansion of this airline into YSJ has garnered some notice in the main Canada section airport thread too. This comment was interesting:

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Pascan are adding a ZBF-YSJ-YHZ route and a YSJ-YHZ route operating X67.

I assume the routing will be ZBF-YSJ-YHZ-YSJ-YHZ-YSJ-ZBF.

https://canadianaviationnews.ca/sain...l-air-service/

I wonder if pax will be able to interline with PD at YHZ?

I hadn’t realized how much Pascan had shrunk in Quebec. They’ve abandoned the north shore and also appear to have discontinued YWK.

I guess trying to compete with Air Liaison and PAL was too much capacity.

So, Pascan is in contraction mode in Quebec. They are abandoning their bread and butter routes in the remote parts of that province. Now they are redeploying to YSJ. How does this auger for the long term viability of this new service? I would be concerned.

Again, I do not think Pascan will be the saviour for YSJ. I reiterate - if you want competition for Air Canada look to Porter. They are opening a new hub at St. Hubert, and, are building up their routings to YOW in Ottawa as well. Both these airports will also be served by Embraer jets as well, and will allow for multiple connection to western Canada and the US. This would be real competition for YSJ.

[sailor734]

Nope, no financial interest in Porter, nor am I rooting against Flair. I'm just far more interested in seeing a mainline carrier in addition to AC operating out of YSJ. I honestly think that competition is the only way we are going to get prices out of SJ down to around the same price for the same destination out of YQM or YFC. Given the Canadian aviation landscape and WestJet's move out of the east to concentrate on western routes, Porter is the only candidate I can think of that exists today.

As for Flair "circling the drain" I'm no aviation expert but I have read a lot of aviation and business media by people who are. The overwhelming consensus is that their chances for success are quite limited. I suppose after all the budget airlines that have failed in Canada over the years eventually someone might succeed but unless market conditions change it seems unlikely.

Concentrating more on seasonal flights to holiday destinations might give them a boost but scheduled passenger service within Canada will continue to be a very tough place for any ULCC to make a dollar.

A variation of the old joke.....How do you make a million dollars in Canadian aviation? ......... Start with a billion and open a budget airline.

[MonctonRad]

I am not too optimistic about expansion projects at YQM either. There is some potential, but, I think this will be quite modest (at best).

- Air Canada has restarted 3x daily service to YYZ for the summer. It would be nice if they made this a 3x daily service year round.

- Air Canada used to fly YQM-YOW daily, but this was suspended during the COVID pandemic. It would be nice if this returned, but, we now have 2x daily service to Ottawa on Porter. This might skewer this possibility.

- It would be nice to see a several times daily puddle jump service on Air Canada to YHZ to allow for convenient US and European connections. This might happen at some point (especially if Air Canada can find a regional partner).

- I think there is a strong possibility that Porter will institute a YQM-YHU (Montreal Metropolitan Airport, St Hubert) service once that airport hub becomes functional. This could be 1-2x daily.

- As for WestJet, I would hope for their YQM-YYZ service to become daily year round. At present it is seasonal. I imagine their current services from YQM to Calgary and Edmonton to remain about the same.

- As for PAL, they currently fly to Mont Joli/Wabush and Deer Lake/St. John's from YQM. I expect these service levels to remain pretty stable.

- As for the seasonal charter services, Moncton is pretty well served. We have seven destinations in five countries. I would however like to see increased frequency to Orlando. It is a popular tourism destination.

Finally, as for US/international routes, YQM is like YSJ. Air Canada is not interested, and is unlikely to become interested since neither airport has US pre-clearance facilities. If US service comes from anywhere, it would have to be from a US regional airline, and, unless the cities or the province is willing to bribe an airline with subsidies, this ain't gonna happen. Internationally, there might be a faint possibility of a Moncton-Paris summer seasonal service just because of the Acadian connections, but, I think this higly remote as well.

So, in summary, for YQM, I really don't see any new destinations (beyond YHZ and YHU), but do hold out some hope for increased service levels and increased frequency.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I am not too optimistic about expansion projects at YQM either. There is some potential, but, I think this will be quite modest (at best).

- Air Canada has restarted 3x daily service to YYZ for the summer. It would be nice if they made this a 3x daily service year round.

- Air Canada used to fly YQM-YOW daily, but this was suspended during the COVID pandemic. It would be nice if this returned, but, we now have 2x daily service to Ottawa on Porter. This might skewer this possibility.

- It would be nice to see a several times daily puddle jump service on Air Canada to YHZ to allow for convenient US and European connections. This might happen at some point (especially if Air Canada can find a regional partner).

- I think there is a strong possibility that Porter will institute a YQM-YHU (Montreal Metropolitan Airport, St Hubert) service once that airport hub becomes functional. This could be 1-2x daily.

- As for WestJet, I would hope for their YQM-YYZ service to become daily year round. At present it is seasonal. I imagine their current services from YQM to Calgary and Edmonton to remain about the same.

- As for PAL, they currently fly to Mont Joli/Wabush and Deer Lake/St. John's from YQM. I expect these service levels to remain pretty stable.

- As for the seasonal charter services, Moncton is pretty well served. We have seven destinations in five countries. I would however like to see increased frequency to Orlando. It is a popular tourism destination.

Finally, as for US/international routes, YQM is like YSJ. Air Canada is not interested, and is unlikely to become interested since neither airport has US pre-clearance facilities. If US service comes from anywhere, it would have to be from a US regional airline, and, unless the cities or the province is willing to bribe an airline with subsidies, this ain't gonna happen. Internationally, there might be a faint possibility of a Moncton-Paris summer seasonal service just because of the Acadian connections, but, I think this higly remote as well.

So, in summary, for YQM, I really don't see any new destinations (beyond YHZ and YHU), but do hold out some hope for increased service levels and increased frequency.

Good summation and probable quite realistic. Some here seem to have trouble differentiating realism and negativity.

[sailor734]

Might this be the future of Air Canada service from YSJ?

https://www.cp24.com/news/air-canada...rloo-1.6777691

[theshark]

Originally Posted by q12

Here is the Pascan schedule:

Bring back the daily YUL flight to ZBF and we would be in good shape for the size of our airport. Speaking to a pilot and they are starting slowly to fill the voids, they have pilots, just not enough first officers fort the flights at the moment.