Trillium Line Upgrades & Extension (Stage 2) [Greenboro to Airport/Limebank] | U/C

[Truenorth00]

Suburban sprawl is a function of commute time to the core. Simple as that. If you ever lived in the 905, you'd understand how much people who work in the core base their home purchase decisions on being able to park and commute by GO. If GO didn't exist, these people would have some horrific drives and you'd see a much lower willingness to commute from places like Barrie, Guelph, Bowmanville, etc. You'd also see a lot less sprawl if GO was limited to access by feeder bus (which is what most of the TTC is). You'd probably see double or triple the density within a 15 min bus ride of a GO station, which isn't dating much, given that most of it is very low density McMansions.

Ottawa can choose. It can choose to build a transit system that builds the city, like the TTC did. Or it can choose to build a system that facilitates suburban commuters, like GO did, and accept the sprawl that comes with that. I'd prefer the former.

[originalmuffins]

For me Stage 2 and 3 are what we need. I don't think we need a Go Commuter Rail service style yet. Ottawa needs to build around the current neighborhoods, connect them together better and then start densifying around those station. I don't think stopping LRT from already built core neighborhoods is the right idea, what we need to do is allow those neighborhoods to flourish as distinct areas and have them create limits of where the city can grow.

Aka "Downtown Kanata" "Downtown Barrhaven" "Downtown Orleans" etc. Ottawa is projected to get to 2million around 2040, so the current LRT plan is fine. There are trams that might need to be placed in certain areas like suggested in other threads but this needs to happen to stop the constant sprawl from happening. The more density we start getting in the core AND suburbs, the more we combat sprawl because many people like their certain neighborhoods.

Great example was my last neighbor, he only wanted to live within Barrhaven as soon as one of those towers went up in the Barrhaven core, he sold his house and moved into one because he could stay close to the area and finally downsize. Anecdotal maybe, but it happens a lot more than many think.

[Truenorth00]

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[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I bet, we do this inside two decades.

I am not convinced that it will be needed that soon. First of all, it is uncertain how quickly commuter ridership (the driver of capacity issues) will recover from COVID. Secondly, as they approach capacity, they can divert many of the riders to the south-eastern transitway by adding more busses along it (partially with extensions of routes that terminate at either South Keys or Greenboro). The transitway can easily handle thousands of PPHPD.

It will be decades before this happens, but once the south-east transitway is nearing capacity, there will be enough demand to look at a "Bank St" subway to get those from the south end directly downtown.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am not convinced that it will be needed that soon. First of all, it is uncertain how quickly commuter ridership (the driver of capacity issues) will recover from COVID. Secondly, as they approach capacity, they can divert many of the riders to the south-eastern transitway by adding more busses along it (partially with extensions of routes that terminate at either South Keys or Greenboro). The transitway can easily handle thousands of PPHPD.

It will be decades before this happens, but once the south-east transitway is nearing capacity, there will be enough demand to look at a "Bank St" subway to get those from the south end directly downtown.

Yes, a Bank Street subway will never be about the demand along the Bank Street corridor alone. A direct route downtown will be fed by numerous bus routes from the southeast suburban areas. As soon as a Bank Street subway opens, demand along the alternate routes will drop substantially. At the moment, this is only the southeast Transitway. This will not be the end of the world, as there is still need (hopefully growing) for more riders crossing the city east-west that don't need or want to go through downtown.

[RuralCitizen]

What prevents the city to interline Trillium line up to let's say Parliament Station in the future? (I'm talking about once Trillium gets converted to electric)

Is it still physically possible to create a Bayview bypass, and reserve the corridor for it? This would be the cheapest alternative and put another nail on the Bank St. subway coffin.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

What prevents the city to interline Trillium line up to let's say Parliament Station in the future? (I'm talking about once Trillium gets converted to electric)

The trains and platforms are incompatible. If/when the line is converted, they will continue running the European main line FLIRTS, which are too large for the tunnel and require a high level platform.

[RuralCitizen]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The trains and platforms are incompatible. If/when the line is converted, they will continue running the European main line FLIRTS, which are too large for the tunnel and require a high level platform.

But couldn't they adapt the trillium line stations to be able to use the Confederation line vehicles instead? Vehicles aren't eternal and at one point they will need to be replaced. They could move to have a single type of vehicles. That is when they could implement a interlining, so long they reserve the corridor. (Could be 20+ years from now)

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

But couldn't they adapt the trillium line stations to be able to use the Confederation line vehicles instead? Vehicles aren't eternal and at one point they will need to be replaced. They could move to have a single type of vehicles. That is when they could implement a interlining, so long they reserve the corridor. (Could be 20+ years from now)

It would require a complete rebuild of Trillium. New lower, longer platforms, stairs and elevators would need to be adjusted in height (likely rebuilt). Either that or they somehow raise the track bed significantly. In any case, I don't think that's realistic. It would probably take another 2-3 years and cost Billions.

Best case scenario for Trillium is a slight increase in frequency and an extension to Gatineau, and even that seems doubtful with Walkley overpass (the next logical step to double track for increased frequency) is being rehabbed instead of replaced and the walkway and pathways at the end of the Bayview Trillium platform, and the PoW (Commanda) Bridge being converted for active transportation uses. I don't think it will ever make its way downtown. The current design made sure of that.

[RuralCitizen]

It would be fun if we were able to sue decision making officials for bad decision making.

Nobody seems "really" accountable, they just retire, get fired, voted out, and move on to a new career.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The trains and platforms are incompatible. If/when the line is converted, they will continue running the European main line FLIRTS, which are too large for the tunnel and require a high level platform.

There is no reason a new tunnel couldn't be designed to accommodate FLIRTs. Once of the advantages of FLIRTs is that they can be converted to fully electric (just remove the diesel module and add a pantograph). Then again, the FLIRTs will likely be at their end of life when this becomes necessary.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It would require a complete rebuild of Trillium. New lower, longer platforms, stairs and elevators would need to be adjusted in height (likely rebuilt). Either that or they somehow raise the track bed significantly. In any case, I don't think that's realistic. It would probably take another 2-3 years and cost Billions.

The way I see it, the Airport spur would be extended to use the existing Trillium Line to Bayview and the new line would run along the Transitway with new track and stations to South Keys. If they did want to switch train types, rather than lower the platforms, they would raise the tracks to be level with the platforms at the three south stations (Leitrim, Bowesville and Limebank).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Go did not create the built form of the GTA. Go was created to deal with the built form of the GTA. We need to stop talking about transit being the cause of suburban sprawl. The primary causes of sprawl are roads, auto culture, and the high cost of urban land.

Transit is not a cause of it, but the design of the service can help perpetuate it by giving suburban residents (another) implicit subsidy. Or, in some cases, explicit ones.

[ponyboycurtis]

I was at Greenboro yesterday and saw a Concordia LNT heading northbound and presumably turned into Walkley yards. I couldn't help but wonder what it's pathing was.

How far does continuous tracking go southbound?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Transit is not a cause of it, but the design of the service can help perpetuate it by giving suburban residents (another) implicit subsidy. Or, in some cases, explicit ones.

Thank you. I couldn't put it this clearly.

[J.OT13]

Some late June Snapshot updates from O-Train Fan contributors:

Bayview, quite an impressive expansion. Once the pedestrian bridge to nowhere is built, it will be quite a sight.

https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-...n-june-28-2022





Corso Italia, nice to see at least one new area in the urban core serviced by rapid transit.



https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-...n-june-28-2022

Dow's Lake and future Civic site. Really worried the City's slow process and incapacity to plan for the future will either delay the Civic or force the Ottawa Hospital to start construction without widening the trench. Worried Dow's lake station won't be expanded in time for the hospital's opening as well.





https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-...n-june-12-2022

Mooney's Bay, not much of a change.



https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-...n-june-14-2022

South Keys, at least the platform is fully covered.





https://otrain.railfans.ca/snapshot-...n-june-14-2022

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

I was at Greenboro yesterday and saw a Concordia LNT heading northbound and presumably turned into Walkley yards. I couldn't help but wonder what it's pathing was.

How far does continuous tracking go southbound?

Last Tuesday evening (28th) I was at the airport and saw the FLIRTs doing testing, they went about as far as the hairpin turn on Alert Road (approximate location).

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

Last Tuesday evening (28th) I was at the airport and saw the FLIRTs doing testing, they went about as far as the hairpin turn on Alert Road (approximate location).

Ah ok. Maybe it's something as simple as keeping those diesel units in good order while being stored. Squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say.

As opposed to cooking gear boxes and derailing trains.

[lrt's friend]

Part of a Flirt train was being transported on a truck north on south Bank Street at 8:45 this morning

[SL123]

Thats going to be a nice big plaza in front of Corso Italia Station

[lrt's friend]

I drove by Limebank and Bowesville stations today. Is Bowesville Station on a slope? There seems to be a considerable dip in the track between the Earl Armstrong and Bowesville overpasses, which are not that far apart and where the station is located.