The Manitoba Provincial Politics Discussion

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

The reason that Wab Kinew was given so many chances, is that he comes from a rich and entitled background. The vast majority of Indigenous people are not so fortunate. If Wab Kinew was working class, he would have done jail time, and more than likely would have been disqualified from holding office, or working in many industries.

No offence, but Wab Kinew, is about the worst example possible.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ True. Wab was an upper middle class city kid with professional parents and all the advantages in life that brings. That he would eventually turn out fine was probably never in doubt.

Ok all valid points. But what about his parents? They clearly did something right. Wouldn't his family experience still be a good example to others? That native can reach the middle class?

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Ok all valid points. But what about his parents? They clearly did something right. Wouldn't his family experience still be a good example to others? That native can reach the middle class?

Ok, so you claim you aren’t talking about trends. What exactly are you trying to suggest here? You think the solution to the higher rates of crime and poverty in Indigenous people is for them to “follow examples?” How would you accomplish that at scale? Please try to make me understand how you think this would work.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Yes you are privileged you live in Canada. You have higher standard of living and access to things much of the world doesn't. You also espouse privilieged white liberal talking points. I am glad you improved your situation. That only proves my point. You can improve yourself in this country.

Funny you threw that out there after writing this.Maybe take your own advice?

You are not understanding what I am saying. NO ONE in Canada, Haiti, Cuba, UK, Ukraine, Kenya, Brazil, etc should have to go through what I went through to escape poverty. Let me be clear: it does not have to be this way. Class hierarchies are not natural. They are designed. I achieved what I did not because of capitalism, but in spite of it. And I am absolutely not espousing white liberal talking points. When I discuss the problems, they are facts. When I am discussing why they got to where they were and how to fix them, I am also coming from an evidence-based point of view, based on a framework of social and economic democracy that puts people ahead of profits. As a socialist, I'd prefer to not be compared to a liberal, who typically would not change the capitalist economic system we live under.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

You are not understanding what I am saying. NO ONE in Canada, Haiti, Cuba, UK, Ukraine, Kenya, Brazil, etc should have to go through what I went through to escape poverty. Let me be clear: it does not have to be this way. Class hierarchies are not natural. They are designed. I achieved what I did not because of capitalism, but in spite of it.

Wow your privilege is really showing. You really want to compare being poor in Canada to being poor in Haiti?? No one should be in poverty period yet Canada allows you to get out of it. With the exception of the UK, I doubt you could have come out of poverty at all in the other countries you mention. Even being poor in Canada is extremely different than saying you are poor in Haiti or Brazil. There is a reason immigrants and refugees choose to come here. Including from Socialist countries.

And I am absolutely not espousing white liberal talking points.

Yes you are . You sounds just like all the other SJW bashing capitalism Yet would never give it up and are doing well becuase of it. You even want to play the victim. Typical sjw move.

When I discuss the problems, they are facts. When I am discussing why they got to where they were and how to fix them, I am also coming from an evidence-based point of view, based on a framework of social and economic democracy that puts people ahead of profits. As a socialist, I'd prefer to not be compared to a liberal, who typically would not change the capitalist economic system we live under.

You have not stated any facts or solutions. If you think socialism can provide you a higher standard of living than what you already have, I suggest you go live in a sociliast country try it out for a while. Like rrskylar said, go to try Venezuela.











.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Wow your privilege is really showing. You really want to compare being poor in Canada to being poor in Haiti?? No one should be in poverty period yet Canada allows you to get out of it. With the exception of the UK, I doubt you could have come out of poverty at all in the other countries you mention. Even being poor in Canada is extremely different than saying you are poor in Haiti or Brazil. There is a reason immigrants and refugees choose to come here. Including from Socialist countries.

You sure like to simplify things that are not simple, but not necessarily too complex to understand. It just takes some effort and intellectual curiosity on your part. Much of the time, when people are fleeing other countries, its because of Western imperialism in an attempt to gain access to minerals and fossil fuels. And this is often why socialist countries are coup'd or destabilized by the US, the UK, their allies including Canada, and CIA-backed forces.

Also, I wasn't comparing being poor in Canada to being poor in Haiti. Give your head a shake. I am suggesting every human deserves the same dignity and rights, irrespective of where they were born or live.

Originally Posted by Luisito

Yes you are . You sounds just like all the other SJW bashing capitalism Yet would never give it up and are doing well becuase of it. You even want to play the victim. Typical sjw move.

Play the victim? I did not choose to play this game of life. I did what I could with the hand I was dealt. As someone who doesn't just blindly carry on in life without fighting back against those who put up barriers for me, I dove into why I and others were dealt such a hand and came to the conclusion that it was deliberate and didn't have to be that way.

Originally Posted by Luisito

You have not stated any facts or solutions. If you think socialism can provide you a higher standard of living than what you already have, I suggest you go live in a sociliast country try it out for a while. Like rrskylar said, go to try Venezuela.

Venezuela is not an example of what I would suggest anyone should follow. There is no good example because of many reasons, including the above mentioned interventions by America and its allies. Pinochet's Chile is a great example of how a socialist movement was brutally-destroyed by an American backed intervention, installing the earliest example of neoliberalism.

"You have not stated any facts or solutions". Come on man, you can't be serious. I have stated many. Tell me which specific examples you disagree with.

If you are actually curious about learning something and want to know what socialism is, you can start here. Or remain ignorant to protect your feelings and ego. It's no skin off my back.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Ok all valid points. But what about his parents? They clearly did something right. Wouldn't his family experience still be a good example to others? That native can reach the middle class?

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Ok, so you claim you aren’t talking about trends. What exactly are you trying to suggest here? You think the solution to the higher rates of crime and poverty in Indigenous people is for them to “follow examples?” How would you accomplish that at scale? Please try to make me understand how you think this would work.

If you cannot answer this question, then you are clearly just full of it and wasting all of our time.

[pspeid]

"The reason that Wab Kinew was given so many chances, is that he comes from a rich and entitled background. The vast majority of Indigenous people are not so fortunate. If Wab Kinew was working class, he would have done jail time, and more than likely would have been disqualified from holding office, or working in many industries.

No offence, but Wab Kinew, is about the worst example possible."

I was also talking about his making some bad personal choices, but yeah I get your point. There would have been much better examples of people overcoming economic hardship for this particular conversation. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Luisito]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Also, I wasn't comparing being poor in Canada to being poor in Haiti. Give your head a shake. I am suggesting every human deserves the same dignity and rights, irrespective of where they were born or live.

That goes without saying, and you should feel lucky you iive in Canada where you are better off than 90% of the world.

Venezuela is not an example of what I would suggest anyone should follow. There is no good example because of many reasons, including the above mentioned interventions by America and its allies. Pinochet's Chile is a great example of how a socialist movement was brutally-destroyed by an American backed intervention, installing the earliest example of neoliberalism.

There are no good examples of socialist countries because it really hasn't worked anywhere. You're lucky (as are all Canadians) they have never had to live through a dictatorship or military intervention.

If you cannot answer this question, then you are clearly just full of it and wasting all of our time.

You demand answers after you have called people stupid and idiotic? Get off your high horse.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Luisito

That goes without saying, and you should feel lucky you iive in Canada where you are better off than 90% of the world.

It gives me no pleasure knowing how many people are suffering in our country and elsewhere, from no fault of their own.

Originally Posted by Luisito

There are no good examples of socialist countries because it really hasn't worked anywhere.

Incorrect. You are mistaking “socialism was defeated by the power of capital” with “socialism doesn’t work”. The fight will never stop as much as the ownership class beats us down. I sure hope you’re part of that 1%, otherwise you’re making decisions against your own best interests.

Originally Posted by Luisito

You're lucky (as are all Canadians) they have never had to live through a dictatorship or military intervention.

I wouldn’t say crippling anxiety, periods of suicidal ideation and discovering hard work doesn’t actually pay off is that lucky.

Originally Posted by Luisito

You demand answers after you have called people stupid and idiotic? Get off your high horse.

Maybe I’m the stupid one. Please enlighten us and prove my assumptions wrong.

[P&M40BELOW]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

You are looking at all the wrong things to ignore the insurmountable evidence that disagrees with you. Travel is much cheaper today than it was in the 80s. What isn’t cheaper? Housing. Education. Children. Meanwhile, incomes, after steadily rising vs inflation until the 80s have been stagnant since, despite productivity (ie working harder and smarter) rising. When it comes to smartphones, those are essentially a requirement nowadays to stay connected to friends and family. If you think people are getting soft, who’s fault do you think that is? Do you think parents all came together and decided “you know what, let’s take it easy on kids and don’t have any expectations of them.” Get out of here. Maybe it’s because wealthier generations tended to try and make life easier for their kids, but in reality the economy keeps demanding more out of them while expecting them to consume as much as possible in order to keep profits up. You and others really seem to buy into this idea that we are all personally responsible for our successes and failures. Well guess what? Check your arrogance and accept the fact that none of us are self-made. We are products of our environment, an environment that is becoming more cruel, more isolating, more greedy, more corrupted. And people who have actually experienced reality knows it.

You are delusional. Your lack of personal self awareness and accountability is the height of entitlement and arrogance. We are all responsible for our own lives. None of us are self made?? Yes and you’ve never met anyone who had every opportunity in front of them and chose to be a lazy ass. Of course you’ve never met anyone who was a complete savage and out worked everyone around them and became successful. They usually weren’t the smartest person either.

[P&M40BELOW]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

I'm sorry, but this is the most idiotic thing I have ever read on this forum. You, and others, really have a fucked up view of humans and seem to have inability to empathize with other's experiences, even after several posters have described them, particularly when children are raised in abusive, chaotic households, and how hard it is to overcome that as an adult to end the cycle. Make no mistake, the situation we are in is not an accident or from individual failures. It is from deliberate policy choices that puts the market and profits as the number one priority of governments. Privatization, government deregulation, and of gutting public services is the predominant mantra of most mainstream neolibreal governments on the right or centre-left. Homelessness and poverty cannot and will not be solved in this system because it would go against these principles, and remove the stick that disciplines labour, and keeps workers from uniting and trying to exert their power by having the threat of destitution hanging over their heads and keeping us all fighting and paranoid of each other, preventing any kind of movement that would push back against the neoliberal status quo. It really is not that complicated, nor is it a secret. Open your goddamned eyes, man, or at least admit that you prefer things this way. Admit that you want a society that forces people to work because they have to, not because they want to. Admit that you want a society that is free for you, but not everyone. Admit you want a society that is driven by what works best for the ownership class and what makes them/you the most profits, and not a society for people that is democratic and driven by communities. Honesty, after all, is much more respectable than wilful ignorance.



Lol, right. Just what Indigenous people need: more capitalism. Cuz that worked out so well for them over the last 150+ years, on or off the reserve.

Yes every able bodied person should work. It’s called contributing to society. Even nomadic tribesmen had to work or they didn’t eat.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Ok all valid points. But what about his parents? They clearly did something right. Wouldn't his family experience still be a good example to others? That native can reach the middle class?

wab was young and stupid and did things to change his life can we move on



the issues we have will change in time if we started investing in the children of the north and put the petty federal vs province bs out the window already in this province

northern manitobas 50yrs of rot has realy screwed our province being up here the pessimisim is inferiating theres no reason for any of this crap the systematic racsym starting with children being repressed makes me want to puke and screem


this slam wab stuff needs to stop he fucked up when he was young not nice stuff but hes actualy tride to make positive change and led the way to positive growth of ones self and yes we should take astep to let all fn figure their shit out we may be surprized its time for them to truely get involved for the future of their people and everyone els in canada we are all nieghbors and cusins and what ever els stop opressing our fn its taking all of us into the shitter

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

Yes every able bodied person should work. It’s called contributing to society. Even nomadic tribesmen had to work or they didn’t eat.

the lack of people wanting to work is a huge issue

the solution cant be over night its actual real investment in our children it will take years but its can happen slowly

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

It's unfortunate that certain people are unable to have an open mind and try to learn from other's perspectives.

I agree with this and try to include myself in this. Learning can be uncomfortable, and adult learning is especially difficult when one has formed comfortable patterns of thinking.

Lusito and others do make some valid points that people need self-motivation to make changes in their lives, however, I argue against what seems to be their "that's all it takes/one size fits all" perspective. I find it simplistic and self-serving, in that it's easier to dismiss problems than it is to deal with them. But, as I said, learning is uncomfortable.

Lusito and others also, somewhat ironically, make a good point that generalizations, either positive or negative, need to be avoided.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

You are delusional. Your lack of personal self awareness and accountability is the height of entitlement and arrogance. We are all responsible for our own lives. None of us are self made?? Yes and you’ve never met anyone who had every opportunity in front of them and chose to be a lazy ass. Of course you’ve never met anyone who was a complete savage and out worked everyone around them and became successful. They usually weren’t the smartest person either.

Dude, even the most successful people have some combination of luck, external influences, and personal grit. Most of the richest people in the world were born on 3rd base and thought they hit home runs. A lot of them use their power and wealth to make more, often in unethical ways at best, and highly illegal ways at the worst. That is if they didn’t have government re-write the laws or adjust regulations to favour them. I’m not making this shit up. It’s all happening out in the open. It’s up to you if you want to pay attention. I also don’t make comments on society solely based on my personal experience but no, despite knowing a lot of successful people, none of them have done it strictly on their own.

Btw, you don't know me so don't make assumptions about me. I pride myself in my ability to be self-aware and accountable. You can't grow as a person without these traits. I also got to where I am today because of my grit. But I recognize that I was born with a lot these abilities or gained them as a child and that I wouldn't have been able to harness them without the outside influences I had. My family probably would have been on the streets without things like public housing and the child tax credit. We would have starved without the food bank to fill the gaps in our relatively weak social safety net. Sure, I wish things were a lot easier and less stressful, and I don't think anyone should have to have gone through what my family has, or worse, which is why I am fighting for a better world.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

Yes every able bodied person should work. It’s called contributing to society. Even nomadic tribesmen had to work or they didn’t eat.

The difference is, those nomadic people didn’t have to send a large part of the food they hunted or gathered to some authoritarian figure who claimed ownership of the land they lived on. Its pretty fucked up to have the view that every person born in this capitalist world should be slaves to it or starve. Doesn’t sound like freedom to me.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

the lack of people wanting to work is a huge issue

the solution cant be over night its actual real investment in our children it will take years but its can happen slowly

Most people want to contribute to society. People with dignity don’t want to be slaves, making pennies on the dollar of value they make for someone else. The type of work that is available today is also not very human or sparks joy in people’s lives. We have a society set up for profits, not humans. Is it any wonder so many people don’t want to work jobs that are both depressing and not getting them ahead financially? A recent study showed that the jobs that made people happiest were ones where people worked outdoors like in logging and the ones that make people the least happy were office jobs. So clearly people don’t want to just lazy around. Technology and industry has evolved quickly in the last 200 years but to expect humans themselves to follow is, as one poster said, delusional. (Not saying you are, just anyone who make think otherwise)

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I agree with this and try to include myself in this. Learning can be uncomfortable, and adult learning is especially difficult when one has formed comfortable patterns of thinking.

Lusito and others do make some valid points that people need self-motivation to make changes in their lives, however, I argue against what seems to be their "that's all it takes/one size fits all" perspective. I find it simplistic and self-serving, in that it's easier to dismiss problems than it is to deal with them. But, as I said, learning is uncomfortable.

Lusito and others also, somewhat ironically, make a good point that generalizations, either positive or negative, need to be avoided.

Totally. Generalizations are only good as a starting point. As interdependent we are on each other, we are all individuals with our own interests and skills. Clearly things are deteriorating economically and culturally on both a social and individual level. In my opinion, we can’t reverse this trend without radical change, and to make radical change you need a mass movement with common goals. This is why I have the politics I have. I don’t see any other way of creating a supportive society that allows both individual and collective flourishing. It won’t be accomplished through incrementalism or centrist politics, considering the fascism that is quickly creeping in.

[djforsberg]

There seems to be this assumption that recognizing inequities and actual cases where people are victims of their environment means people shouldn't have to contribute to society. This is far from the case. Instead, what I, at least, am suggesting is that we recognize that we have a collective responsibility for each other, to ensure there is an opportunity for individuals to contribute in a meaningful way, whether culturally or economically, for themselves and their community and if those contributions are creating an economic value, that we democratically decide how that value is distributed. Our society, economy, and workplaces are becoming increasingly authoritarian and centralized. We have an economy that is driven by supply, not by demand. We tend to own less and subscribe to or rent everything. Consumption is encouraged no matter how wasteful it is. What food and crops that are produced is based on what makes the most profit, and not based on what humans actually need to be healthy. It shouldn't be a surprise that humans tend to reject such an inhumane and destructive society.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

The difference is, those nomadic people didn’t have to send a large part of the food they hunted or gathered to some authoritarian figure who claimed ownership of the land they lived on. Its pretty fucked up to have the view that every person born in this capitalist world should be slaves to it or starve. Doesn’t sound like freedom to me.

Great. Let's give kids another reason to have bad attitudes towards hard work. SMH