Saskatoon Construction III

[LittleBoy]

Originally Posted by roryn1

I really don't see this in the near term. Does anyone have any examples of cities with ~500,000 that have a full on downtown grocer?

Speaking of produce - has anyone heard a hint of anything on what's replacing the farmers market downtown? I know it's a weird year for everything this upcoming summer with corona, but I can't imagine the city letting the original association go THAT EASY without any plans for another style farmers market downtown. The owner of The Banks must be livid if nothing is actually coming to replace the mediocre one. That would absolutely blow my mind and cause me to lose faith in the entire city council. I am very surprised no announcement on that has been made yet - even if it's postponed for this summer. Anyone have any thoughts?

Just a thought, but a grocery store wouldn't necessarily have to be located within the downtown core to service the downtown population. The Safeway in Regina's Cathedral Village is only a 10 minute walk from downtown, certainly within walking distance. I'm not too familiar with existing options, but a grocery store in Riversdale or City Park could achieve the same result.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by Roquentin

https://www.maclabdevelopment.com/our-work/vertical-projects-3/parks-10/
The Edmonton project has been approved for 940~ units, I believe, so if our project here were built as one tower, it might conceivably have the same kind of scale as one of the towers in this development. Sorry for the long-winded tangent, but units are a more accurate indicator of density than building height.

Anyway, the subject of retail is really interesting and one of the reasons it would be nice to know more about the developer's plans. I think any retail here will do well, but I'd like to see something like a large Shoppers Drug Mart with a decent grocery section.

Again, I think that is the entire premise I'm trying to make, why stuff or squeeze as many units into a squat, stubby couple of buildings when you could add the additional height (and better quality esthetic/bigger windows etc) and have higher desirable units that could garner higher $ value & higher city taxes per unit?

Otherwise they don't know the market if they build the small sq footage units with small windows, penitentiary style joke of a building to squeeze the highest density humanly possible that no one would ever want pay to live in.
Build high, build more floors to get the added space for higher quality valued units. Your Edmonton proposal is a perfect example of that...

I'd like to see a grocer like Nesters Market (like at Seymore & Nelson in downtown Vancouver) it's a perfect example of a small to mid size grocer that would do well in a higher density neighbouringhood in downtown Saskatoon that could cater to downtown residents/foreign students etc that don't own vehicles.
Sending residence from downtown to Preston Crossing & the suburbs defeats the entire purpose of encouraging downtown residential infill.

[Roquentin]

Originally Posted by roryn1

does anyone have an example of actually needing a grocery store downtown? I personally like to grab my groceries from a large store which is just about nonexistent in all parts of the work in their downtowns. i enjoy grabbing everything i need for atleast ten days which requires a cart and is unfeasible to walk home with. when i need “essentials”, there are plenty of stores that have all of the necessities downtown (shoppers, pharmasave, 5th ave confectionary, 6th ave confectionary, and more).

Is a grocery store "needed?" From a public health perspective, yes. Access to healthy, affordable food is a problem for the downtown and adjacent west side neighborhoods. It's an issue of food security. But food deserts impact people differently. So you or I might be able to hop in our cars and go to Preston Crossing or 8th Street or wherever else outside the core, but that's a real barrier for many, which can lead to poorer nutrition and serious health issues. And even though I can drive to Preston Crossing whenever I feel like making a salad, that is hardly an ideal scenario for a number of reasons, and I'm sure my diet and my lifestyle would be healthier if I could walk a few blocks for groceries instead of driving to the 'burbs to stockpile every week or two. It's a matter of having better access to food on a daily level - something that a lot of people would want and expect when considering whether to live centrally.

I live downtown and I've picked up the odd jug of milk at Pharmasave et al. too. I like those stores, and they help pick up the slack left by the absence of a grocery store downtown. Better grocery options would directly compete with those stores, and that's a worthwhile consideration too. But ultimately, a store like Broadway's Extra Foods or Nutana's Super Fresh Asian Market would be a real asset for Saskatoon's core, especially with the losses of the City Park grocery and the farmer's market.

And by the way, Winnipeg's core is a food desert too. This is a common problem for a lot of cities, and answers have to be found locally, but it isn't really a question of need - urban grocery stores are needed from a public health perspective. There are all kinds of reasons why they aren't more common, including access to appropriate retail spaces (which I mention just to try to refocus things a little on this development, which may or may not provide much room for retail). But the need certainly exists and will grow with the population of Saskatoon's core.

But oh my goodness - I just had a vision of our current downtown library repurposed as a grocery store. Ok, that is now my favourite pipe dream, haha! Or perhaps a grocery store and a couple towers on the Star Phoenix property when/if the paper moves? How nice would that be!

[Ricopedra]

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[Ricopedra]

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[Roquentin]

Originally Posted by Ricopedra

Back to Baydo: there are a few examples / directions this 25th St. development could go, and why they might feel so emboldened to spurt this shit onto the landscape: "They did it, why can't we?" sort of low-balling.

When a new office building goes up, like the ones at River Landing, it forces the others to "up their game" to stay competitive for tenants. This helps ensure that buildings like Saskatoon Square are kept in good condition, and there are a lot of other tangible spin-off benefits too (such as competitive pricing and rental rates, an increased push for "Class C" buildings to convert to residences or hotels, and the availability of appealing incentives for buyers/renters).

It would be nice to see evidence of this kind of process here, in a residential context. As you say though, these buildings will fit right in with their neighbors like Parkville Manor. If I were a new renter in the area, I might not see much of a difference between these new buildings and Carlton Place across the street, say. With little to outwardly differentiate the buildings, maybe I'd choose this Baydo development (hypothetically!). After all, it would be the only new rental product on the market in the core.

So maybe a lack of competition is part of the problem here. As opposed to the scenario that plays out in the office market, Baydo doesn't need to offer anything better because the bar has been set so low and there isn't anything out there to upstage them. For example, if these were condos, they'd be up against 2nd Ave Lofts, River Landing, The Banks, etc., and I'd expect them to be spectacular failures. But as rentals, all these really need to do is be on par with the walkups and commie blocks in the area. Maybe they do know their market then, in a sense? I don't mean to defend them at all, because the status quo they're pushing is really pathetic, and I don't think that Baydo is even capable of offering anything better than this, but maybe there is a sad logic to it along these lines. Now don't get me wrong --- I completely support the development of affordable rentals, and 364 more apartments here will be great, and beggars can't be choosers, and it's not my money on the line, and how important are aesthetics anyway, and etc. etc. etc., but this development is out of step with the progress suggested by many other recent projects and proposals, and I think it's worth asking why.

Along those lines, I also wish there had been a public consultation process. I walked by this site last night and saw the hoarding they've built along the sidewalk. It looks like there's a portion of the hoarding built to eventually host a large billboard, presumably of renderings of the development and sales information. Is that all the consultation the public gets, haha?

[canuck10]

Originally Posted by Ricopedra

There used to be a full grocery store on the first level of the Army and Navy building - now the Education building - and it was always busy.

Not that it matters but let's keep our history accurate. I'm pretty sure there was never a grocery store in the Army & Navy building. I'm old enough to remember when it was an Eatons Department Store. Then it become an Army & Navy. After they pulled out the Board of Education moved in.

Eaton's may have had a small grocery section at one time but that would have been many eons ago. Saskatoon has had two downtown grocery stores that I remember. There was a Dominion grocery store in Mid Town Plaza in the '70's. And there was a Safeway that shut down in the mid '80's between 1st and 2nd Avenue on 24th Street near the old Bay store.

There you go. I stand to be corrected but the two that I mentioned definitely existed.

If we can get enough population density in the downtown core a grocery store will come. River Landing is a good start.

[Ricopedra]

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[Ricopedra]

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[The Bess]

Here's some info on historic grocery stores downtown

http://wanderlustandwords.blogspot.com/2011/01/grocery-store-for-downtown-saskatoon.html

[Crisis]

Originally Posted by Ricopedra

http://sain.scaa.sk.ca/items/index.php/ok-economy-middle;dc

Here's a pic of the grocery store. Not great, but definitely shows its location. Ciao for now.

Nice find. It appears that the BHP Billiton office is now on that piece of land.

Getting back to the original discussion, it all comes down to economics. If there is enough demand for a full-service grocery store downtown, someone will put one there. Given that there isn't one there now, I'd say that the business case for one simply doesn't pencil out. Shopping habits have changed in the lat 40 years, and have changed even more so in the last couple of months. The decrease in the need for physical "bricks & mortar" stores will accelerate even faster as COVID behaviours become the new norm.

[roryn1]

shopping habits changing couldn’t be more true. another thing that hasn’t been mentioned is delivery services. I know someone in Singapore with a whole family that has had all of their groceries delivered to their door for the last few years. he told me “i don’t want to pick anything up anymore, my family doesn’t have time for that and the delivery services costs are justifiable”. lots of cities that are more dense are getting very on board with this type of service, which completely removes the whole point of going to a brick and mortar store. A grocery store is an unnecessary piece of brick and mortar in that sense, and that’s def how most cities are heading when it comes to retail presence. This is why I don’t think we’ll ever see a grocery store in our downtown. I see the Save on Foods truck coming to my apartment downtown quite a few times now and i can only assume i’ll jump on this trend soon enough.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Crisis

Nice find. It appears that the BHP Billiton office is now on that piece of land.

Getting back to the original discussion, it all comes down to economics. If there is enough demand for a full-service grocery store downtown, someone will put one there. Given that there isn't one there now, I'd say that the business case for one simply doesn't pencil out. Shopping habits have changed in the lat 40 years, and have changed even more so in the last couple of months. The decrease in the need for physical "bricks & mortar" stores will accelerate even faster as COVID behaviours become the new norm.

That store existed when I lived near downtown, 2000-2005. At that point in time it was an ExtraFoods (Loblaws franchise).

Online groceries is what is needed. Then you need some lockers (www.omnioninc.com) like equipment installed near peoples homes or in the base of condo towers. Problem solved.

[Ricopedra]

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[roryn1]

I think we can all agree that the people behind North Prairie have been the worst thing to happen to our downtown (for keeping this block dead for 15 years after purchasing it, creating fake news about building towers to scare away out of town investors and developers, and building so much still vacant commercial space in the suburbs in the last 15 years). Such a shame that the entire lot is basically empty now - especially when BHP doesn’t even have many people working in that building. That block will be beautiful one day, we just need someone to purchase it from North Prairie empire of land investment holdings and never let them own land again in our downtown. Their community support doesn’t offset their business in this city. Am i wrong to say these things? no, because i know out of town investors and developers skim this thread when they’re interested in Saskatoon, and they need to know how fake North Prairie is. If they want to scare away outside investment and developers for their personal gain, let’s ensure everyone knows that they’re all bark and no bite.

[SaskE30]

Baydo Towers everybody! Revel in their mediocrity!



Lots of equipment on site including a deep piling rig.

[Ricopedra]

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[Ricopedra]

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[LittleBoy]

Surprised to see all the complaints about the Baydo project on 25th. Obviously it isn't the nicest looking building but I'd still take the two towers over nothing. Plus, it's not like the other towers in the immediate area are anything special architecturally.
People are entitled to their opinions but I thought there would be more excitement around the biggest urban residential project in the province

[Ricopedra]

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