Halifax Stadium Discussion

[wespidel]

I totally disagree, if what you say is true than there would not be a CFL football in Canada. If every city in Canada took that attitude they never would have built any stadiums in Canada and when they were built their cities were a lot smaller. You have to look at overall market and into the future. Halifax is a bigger city and as a bigger populated area surrounding the city to draw from compared to the cities you mentioned. There is no comparsion!


Halifax needs to built a modestly priced major stadium, 85 to 100 million and that`s the reality and I believe the study will show that and I also believe they know that`s what they need and have to build. Remember the CommonWealth Games stadium was going to be 145 million!

If they build a low end smaller stadium they will stay the same as they are now and never to a player on a National and Global stage!

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

Consider the following possibility... a a "low end" stadium will still be a huge improvement over what we have now.

Virtually anything over what is available now would be a 'huge' improvement, that dosen't necessarily mean that it in and of itself is going to be automatically suitable. I'd rather have a stadium that stands up to some futureproofing from the getgo than a stadium that quickly becomes too small and requires an expansion anyway.

[fenwick16]

I think that a very good stadium can be built for $70 - $80 million dollars. I don't think that the Percival Molson Stadium would be a high cost design if it were built today, but it is a very popular venue. The Argonauts would probably prefer a BMO Field type stadium over the Rogers Centre which is a high cost stadium.

I think that the new Winnipeg Stadium and the Hamilton proposal are expensive because they will contain a lot of totally enclosed concourse space which will increase the operating cost and the construction cost. However, are totally enclosed concourses really required for the spring, summer and fall when a stadium will get most of its use?

I think that insisting on an expensive stadium will result in opposition. There is nothing wrong with building a CFL suitable stadium but at a sensible price. However, I don't think that a sensibly priced stadium should be considered to be second class, just like the BMO Field isn't considered to be second class. I live in the GTA and I have never heard the BMO Field referred to as a second class facility.

Before expecting any money from SMU, someone should ask them if they would use a stadium located in Dartmouth. I think that SMU would much rather use a 5,000 seat stadium on their campus than a 25,000 seat stadium in Dartmouth. So I don't think that a major contribution can be expected from SMU - especially since they don't seem to be that financially well-off.

I would be happy to see a $70 - $80 million dollar stadium that can be upgraded when required. Personally, I feel that any more than this amount would be too extravagant for a financially strapped region.

PS: It would be different if a stadium would be used for 50 - 60 large events per year, then a higher price could be considered. However, it seems like even a CFL suitable stadium would likely have fewer than 15 - 20 large events per year.

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[wespidel]

That`s what I was referring to! A BMO field super model, would not be a low end stadium for 80 million which Fenwick eluded to as well, if built right. It could be the proper size and a suitable CFL ready stadium. It`s doesn`t have to be a 145, 154 or a 200 million dollar stadium like Ottawa`s, Hamilton`s and Winnipeg`s new CFL stadiums.


PS. The reason I included Dal who needs use of a football stadium and could afford to contribute, is because I heard at the basketball game last nite that Dal will have a university football team in two years.

[fenwick16]

Personally, I would love to see a stadium built close to SMU and Dalhousie University but whenever there is a story in the newspapers the location mentioned is always in Dartmouth. I don't think that either university will want to collaborate on a stadium in Dartmouth. If a stadium could be built at Gorsebrook, close to SMU, then it might be a different case.

In order to hold the Grey Cup, I think that it is just necessary to have enough room for temporary expansion, sufficient washrooms and media facilities. But the media facilities and washrooms could be upgraded after a stadium is built, so it is just sufficient to have adequate room for expansion to 40,000 - 45,000 spectators.

[wespidel]

I like that location a lot and Fenwick you are absolutely right! It ties in both universities liked they are virtually both playing on campus which should lead to some additional financial support for the stadium from Dal and SMU. It`s a perfect location to have a CFL football and stage a Grey Cup game. Better yet a Vanier Cup game, Grey Cup weekend like BC are doing this year at the 99th Grey Cup. The site is close to the downtown business core and all the Hotels and restaurants. I think it`s a natural. I believe as well the city and the province own the land which would lead me to believe if it was located across from SMU close to Dal, that the Feds would contribute to the project which would give us our 90 million dollar stadium that councillor Dalrymple indicated last week was actually the real price. I truely hope they stay on this path and get it done!

PS. The biggest problem which I hate to say but to be realistic, even with the universities very much involved, is the fact NS has a NDP govt. and by having the tories in power in Ottawa, they are going to be reluctant to support any project in Halifax where they have no seats, including the new convention centre and the stadium.
People of NS and Halifax I believe made a big mistake because I believe if there was a tory NS govt. right now we would be receiving money for both projects.

SPYDER*

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

A BMO+ stadium sounds like a cheaper kind of stadium that wespidel says isn't worth it. And fenwick16 has often insisted that a stadium must be concrete only, have a roof and be expandable to 40,000+.

I'm not against a stadium of similar caliber to BMO Field. I actually think it is the best HRM is likely to pull off. But I think we need to be honest here, a BMO+ would still be a pretty cheap stadium. (Cheap in the sense of being of poor quality) So I'm really confused as to why wespidel and fenwick16 are using BMO Field as a starting point.

Yes I agree, you are "really confused" again. We are two separate people so why do you group us together? Since we are two different people, we can have different opinions.

[wespidel]

I never once suggested that I wanted any stadium design with seats in the endzones and if you read back you will see that yes I suggested a Super BMO field type stadium but with open endzones in order to expand to 45-50 thousand seats. I also would agree with Fenwick on a concrete built stadium which I believe may be cheaper to build but I believe BMO field was mainly built out of steel versus concrete for a reason. Maybe it was cheaper to build it that way.


BMO field, I agree isn`t a high quality facility compared to most of the more expensive built stadiums but it is a option to build a two tier twined designed stadium with 25,000 permanent plus seats with luxury boxes on both sides, etc., and with open endzones which will accomodate a temporary expansion and possibly with a partial roof depending on the cost. I believe this could be built for 85 to 100 million dollars and yes it would be a modestly built stadium but it would be more affordable and a fairly decent facility.

[wespidel]

Mr. Lunn said that there are already all the stadiums in place, including Moncton`s new facility that can host the FIFA Womens World Cup of soccer. The tories have nothing to gain by giving money to Halifax for a stadium when they have no representatives, no seats in the region and where NB is now a tory govt. Mr. Lunn said they already have what they need to host the 4 divisions which would include Van., Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal and Moncton, all with stadiums.

I believe Halifax is up against the wall politically with a NDP govt. and where they don`t have a facility.

I believe the only chance Halifax has, is to build a modestly priced major stadium, 85 to 100 million, coupled with the fact they are the largest city in Atlantic Canada and if they build it they would have a much superior facility than Moncton and at that point FIFA may over rule the politics of Lunn and the tories and demand Halifax be the sixth host city. I can`t see it happening any other way.

[wespidel]

He said after stating that all the stadiums needed for the FIFA 2015 Womens World Cup are already in place that perchaps Halifax may become one of the host Womens FIFA U-20 World Cup cities in 2014 where they would only have to have a small venue.



If I was Halifax I would be so determined to build a major stadium in Halifax to bury Lunn`s insulting comments and his tory bias politics which his definitely so obvious, favouring Moncton and their PC govt. If I was Halifax I would want to win over FIFA and build a major facility that would knock the tories and Moncton`s NB PC govt. on their minority govt. high horse behinds and embarrass them like they are embarrassing Halifax by making us look like we are small change and behind the times.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Well, whatever... I'd rather get a high quality stadium further down the road then something like what Moncton has.

Furthermore, I think once the convention centre gets started that this will be the last obvious piece of public/private infrastructure.

[MonctonRad]

I would agree that the fact that Halifax is the center of the NDP universe in Atlantic Canada is a definite liability but Peter MacKay is a powerful minister and I doubt that Minister Lunn has the last word on this. All may not be lost.

Also, the NB government may be PC, but Moncton has a reputation as a "Liberal" town (Current MP - Brian Murphy). This is occasionally a liability for us.

Of note is that Bernard Lord may run federally for the Conservative Party in Moncton in the next election. He would be a sure-fire cabinet minister and a potential federal party leader once Harper is gone.

BTW, I wish you guys would stop making aspersions about the "poor quality" of the Moncton Stadium. Yes, it is not up to CFL standards but it did acquit itself quite well for it's primary purpose, which was to host the IAAF World Junior Track and Field Championships. If you want a double tier, all concrete stadium with corporate boxes then that's fine. Just don't belittle our stadium.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

BTW, I wish you guys would stop making aspersions about the "poor quality" of the Moncton Stadium. Yes, it is not up to CFL standards but it did acquit itself quite well for it's primary purpose, which was to host the IAAF World Junior Track and Field Championships. If you want a double tier, all concrete stadium with corporate boxes then that's fine. Just don't belittle our stadium.

Personally, I like this section of the Moncton Stadium. I keep thinking that with a similar roof but large enough to cover about 20 rows of seats, and a concrete (or steel) upper tier then this would be great for Halifax. So in other words, this section with an upper tier and larger roof and repeat it on the other side of the field - what do others think?

MonctonRad - what is on the inside of this structure (washrooms, concessions..)?

(source: http://www.toacanada.com/works/education.html )

[wespidel]

Yes Fenwick I agree as well the Moncton stadium photo you are showing of that side of their stadium is pretty nice. I sat there during Touchdown Atlantic I, but you are right if it was much bigger in size and twined with a upper tier on both sides of their stadium and with triple the rows of seats or more which are really nice high end seats then Moncton would have a pretty decent stadium. There are permanent concession stands and washrooms on that side but again a very small area in relation to the size of the structure which only has a total of 16 rows of seats.

[cormiermax]

Does minister Lunn have the final say on host cities? If not why is he acting as if the host cities have already been chosen?

[wespidel]

I just heard on talk radio that Dexter`s govt. will receive 32 million dollars more in gas revenue based on high gas prices and their tax on tax gas grab.

Lacey was on and confirmed this number which will probably be larger and that currently on 62 dollars worth of gas, Dexter`s govt. takes 24 dollars in gas tax revenue. This is insane and the Dexter`s govt does not give the city of Halifax not even a percentage of their gas revenue.


Well, NS`s NDP govt. if you happen to read this post, I believe and I`m sure the majority of people believe as well, it`s time to give that money back to the people and support the stadium project. Give back the 32 million which will be your contribution towards our stadium because we paid for it, so Halifax our city, can build a major stadium at least 10 years or more overdue !

[thurmas]

the stadium here in winnipeg cost of $190 mil includes a $45 million fitness centre for the public and university of manitoba students and bison athletes. It also includes a Blue Bombers hall of fame to honour our rich history with the likes of Stegall, Bud Grant, Dieter Brock, Walby ect... and because the stadium is a bowl the cost includes a special track for extra grey cup seating going from 33,000 to 40,000 plus. If Halifax keeps the stadium open ended, has no hall of fame or rec facility and maybe benches instead of seats because seats alone cost around $12 mil that should really bring down the cost.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by wespidel

I just heard on talk radio that Dexter`s govt. will receive 32 million dollars more in gas revenue based on high gas prices and their tax on tax gas grab.

Not this partisan political stuff again, please. The Government of Nova Scotia collects the taxes, not 'The Dexter Government', or 'Dexter's government' (oy... shades of the current federal communications policy) or whatever you want to call it. Darryl Dexter is not swimming in piles of tax money that he's personally collected from everyone a la Scrooge McDuck. Beyond that, trying to pin down the current government for taxes implemented by previous governments (minus the 2% HST hike) is silly.

Lacey was on and confirmed this number which will probably be larger and that currently on 62 dollars worth of gas, Dexter`s govt. takes 24 dollars in gas tax revenue. This is insane and the Dexter`s govt does not give the city of Halifax not even a percentage of their gas revenue.

First of all, your numbers are a bit suspect. Assuming today's Halifax fuel prices of $1.258/L, that works out to about 49.3 litres of fuel. The provincial flat tax on fuel is $0.155/L, and the Federal flat tax is $0.1/L.

So: 49.3 x $.155 = $7.65 (rounding up to the nearest cent) toward the provincial flat tax.

HST is a combination of GST (5%) and PST (10%), so not all of it goes to the provincial government.

So: $62 x 10% = $6.20 going to the province.

So: $7.65 + 6.20 = $13.85 on a $62 gas purchase going to the provincial government, not $24. A further $8.03 of that $62 goes to the feds. So the total going to taxes is about $21.88, but only a little over half (2/3rds to be completely fair) of that goes to the province. $22 is closer to the 24 you quoted, but again, only part of that goes to the province.

Now, having taxes charged on taxes is stupid and unfair, but that's not the argument you're presenting here, nor would it be a topic for this section of the forum, but...

Well, NS`s NDP govt. if you happen to read this post, I believe and I`m sure the majority of people believe as well, it`s time to give that money back to the people and support the stadium project. Give back the 32 million which will be your contribution towards our stadium because we paid for it, so Halifax our city, can build a major stadium at least 10 years or more overdue !

While I want to see a proper stadium built, and I think it's important for the city and the province, demanding the provincial government give back money that it doesn't technically have (deficit to fight, and a huge debt to pay down) is silly. Asking them to spend on infrastructure is fine and good, it does need to be justified, and not cookie cutter like demanding the 'extra' money be given to project A, B, or C.