Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

One of the things I was delighted to discover when I visited Jerusalem earlier this year is that it's actually an exception to this rule.

Despite its thousands of years of history, right up until the late 19th century Jerusalem was actually not much more than a tiny village, so almost all of its urban area is less than 150 years old with a huge chunk of it being less than 50 years old, yet pretty much the entire city, even 21st-century greenfield construction, consists of stone facades and narrow streets.

It's hard to believe, but these residential streets in Jerusalem were all built from greenfield in the past 30 years:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@31.74900...2!8i6656?hl=en

https://www.google.ca/maps/@31.78487...2!8i6656?hl=en

https://www.google.ca/maps/@31.72723...2!8i6656?hl=en (fun fact: this one is actually in a West Bank settlement; funny to think of such places as peaceful suburbs)

Didn't even have to nitpick. To get those three images, I just scrolled through lists of neighbourhoods/suburbs in the Jerusalem area on Wikipedia to find ones built in the 1980s or later, picked three at random, and dropped the streetview pin into random spots in the middle of them.

I don't think there's any other city anywhere in the developed world that still builds like that.

I don't know if it's true of the newest suburbs, and there are some bad post-war buildings that stick out, but much of Aberdeen, Scotland is built of grey granite. The stone sparkles in the sunlight, but on a rainy day, it may be the greyest city on earth. Jerusalem's limestone has a far warmer look.

But this could be off-topic.....

[kwoldtimer]

On topic, I was listening to a CBC Radio year end interview with Kitchener mayor, Berry Vrbanovic, and it occurred to me that he sounds very "Kitchener". He was born in Zagreb, so raised in an immigrant household. The slight nasality, the occasional raising at the end of declarative sentences and the (inconsistent) sloppy enunciation - yuh (you), tuh (to), guhnna (going to), all seem very familiar to me. I don't know if there is such a thing as a standard Kitchener accent, but if there is, Vrbanovic comes close to it, istm.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitche...ovic-1.3916737

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Gatineau has a distinct enough accent that I've usually guessed that somebody was from there before they said anything.

I was a bit curious if the accent there is converging along with other urban Quebec accents or if it remains distinct. I haven't been there in a while and most people I know from there have lived elsewhere for a long time, so the accents I hear are mostly ones that formed in the 1990's or earlier.
.

I've never found that the Gatineau accent differs from mainstream Quebec accents. Aside from a handful of local expressions, it's very similar to Montreal, for example.

I've never heard of people from Gatineau being "outed" for their accent when elsewhere in Quebec.

Generally speaking, the accent all over in Quebec is quite harmonized, with only the Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean and areas in the far east with Acadian influences truly standing out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I find Franco-Ontarian accents pretty twangy and rightly or wrongly expect speakers there to be more Anglicized in general, like Acadians. That being said, I think it's too bad that some people feel some dialects are more or less valid or correct than others (whatever that means; who cares if somebody from France or the US thinks your accent doesn't sounds as nice?). It's also unfortunate how you can be judged as being more or less educated based on your accent. There is probably some correlation but you can have a traditionally lower class accent and be well-educated, and lots of people "code switch" between accents or dialects. Traditionally there's been a lot of unfounded discrimination against African American dialects and French Canadian dialects.

People definitely may be judged for their accents in francophone Canada but it cuts both ways. An accent that's too refined (à la Radio-Canada) is definitely viewed as pompous is many circles.

Which anglicisms you use and how often you use them is also an important factor in how your speech is perceived here. (This is true of interactions with people from France as well.)

[MonctonRad]

I presume too many anglicisms is definitely frowned upon in French.

Sort of the opposite situation in English where if you throw in a French phrase here or there is give you a certain je ne sais quoi, a certain flair or elan, implying that you are quite sophisticated.

I imagine this is a medieval holdover from when the ruling classes in England spoke Norman French. Even now English is sort of a bicameral language where everyday spoken English tends to be more Germanic, while written and higher society English is more peppered with French derived words and phrases.........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I presume too many anglicisms is definitely frowned upon in French.

Sort of the opposite situation in English where if you throw in a French phrase here or there is give you a certain je ne sais quoi, a certain flair or elan, implying that you are quite sophisticated.

I imagine this is a medieval holdover from when the ruling classes in England spoke Norman French. Even now English is sort of a bicameral language where everyday spoken English tends to be more Germanic, while written and higher society English is more peppered with French derived words and phrases.........

Anglicisms are way more frowned upon in French Canada than in France. In our case it's because they are seen as a sign of a slippery slope towards our extinction.

In some ways in France it's actually "chic" to use anglicisms. You just have to use the right ones (according to the French) though.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I presume too many anglicisms is definitely frowned upon in French.

Sort of the opposite situation in English where if you throw in a French phrase here or there is give you a certain je ne sais quoi, a certain flair or elan, implying that you are quite sophisticated.

I imagine this is a medieval holdover from when the ruling classes in England spoke Norman French. Even now English is sort of a bicameral language where everyday spoken English tends to be more Germanic, while written and higher society English is more peppered with French derived words and phrases.........

There are thousands of examples of that in English, but I suspect that in most cases French phrases (eg je ne sais quoi, savoir faire, deja vu) in English reflect more recent (i.e. last few hundred years) adoption. The most recent (and overused) examples that come to mind are not French at all, but German, i.e. schadenfreude, with zeitgeist not far behind.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I presume too many anglicisms is definitely frowned upon in French.

Sort of the opposite situation in English where if you throw in a French phrase here or there is give you a certain je ne sais quoi, a certain flair or elan, implying that you are quite sophisticated.

I imagine this is a medieval holdover from when the ruling classes in England spoke Norman French. Even now English is sort of a bicameral language where everyday spoken English tends to be more Germanic, while written and higher society English is more peppered with French derived words and phrases.........

Anglicisms are tolerated among many francophones way too much in Timmins to the point where people wonder: why not just speak English and only English. I think Timmins is the Franglais capital of Canada.

I used to laugh at some "elitist" type people I knew in Southern Ontario would try to sound sophisticated by using French words and I would just translate them and as to what the word actually meant. They often wouldn't be using it the right way.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Anglicisms are tolerated among many francophones way too much in Timmins to the point where people wonder: why not just speak English and only English. I think Timmins is the Franglais capital of Canada.

I used to laugh at some "elitist" type people I knew in Southern Ontario would try to sound sophisticated by using French words and I would just translate them and as to what the word actually meant. They often wouldn't be using it the right way.

I've always wondered whether that is simply a choice, or more a reflection of an inadequate command of either language?

[vid]

It's probably more of a pidgin language. There is a lot of mixing of Anglophone and Francophone people in Northeast Ontario and New Brunswick so they mix the two languages together into a new language with simpler grammar and vocabulary to facilitate trade.

The question would be, if you put them in a situation where they had to speak only English or only French, would they survive?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by vid

It's probably more of a pidgin language. There is a lot of mixing of Anglophone and Francophone people in Northeast Ontario and New Brunswick so they mix the two languages together into a new language with simpler grammar and vocabulary to facilitate trade.

The question would be, if you put them in a situation where they had to speak only English or only French, would they survive?

It really depends. It's never a problem for them to speak English as that is the main language here and is used in business. All francophones raised in Timmins speak English just like any anglophone but some have a very small tinge of an accent if they only spoke French at home.

I've seen some do very well when speaking in French with Quebeckers and others who weren't able at all to have a conversation or serve a client. The more educated and well travelled people here can learn to speak Québécois French very quickly. Actually, highly educated francophones here speak pretty much the same way as Quebeckers. But a Franco-Ontarian who was raised in Ontario won't be using many terminologies and expressions that are heard in Quebec because of societal differences.

[Sarah89]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

On topic, I was listening to a CBC Radio year end interview with Kitchener mayor, Berry Vrbanovic, and it occurred to me that he sounds very "Kitchener". He was born in Zagreb, so raised in an immigrant household. The slight nasality, the occasional raising at the end of declarative sentences and the (inconsistent) sloppy enunciation - yuh (you), tuh (to), guhnna (going to), all seem very familiar to me. I don't know if there is such a thing as a standard Kitchener accent, but if there is, Vrbanovic comes close to it, istm.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitche...ovic-1.3916737

I think I know what you mean. It's just a more hoser-ish Ontario accent and it's the same in Cambridge. I notice people in Oshawa speak in the same way as Kitchener despite the distance. Another few words I notice are ''gew'' for go, ''jewst'.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Anglicisms are tolerated among many francophones way too much in Timmins to the point where people wonder: why not just speak English and only English. I think Timmins is the Franglais capital of Canada.

The franglais capital of Canada is probably Moncton. They even have their own name for it: chiac.

edia.org/wiki/Chiac

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

It's probably more of a pidgin language. There is a lot of mixing of Anglophone and Francophone people in Northeast Ontario and New Brunswick so they mix the two languages together into a new language with simpler grammar and vocabulary to facilitate trade.

The question would be, if you put them in a situation where they had to speak only English or only French, would they survive?

As loco said, in a place like Timmins basically everyone who is native to the city will have native speaker fluency in English. Even the francophones.

In parts of Ontario where French is stronger (think Eastern Ontario, or smaller more francophone towns in the North) you're more likely to find people who call themselves fluently bilingual but who are not even close to being 100% effective in either language.

One of my siblings was definitely like this before marrying an anglophone and moving to a part of Ontario where there are almost no francophones. This in a short period of time has led to 100% fluency in English, and a gradual weakening of French. One of my parents would also be like this in an office setting. The other has basically the same background but is more naturally gifted for languages.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It really depends. It's never a problem for them to speak English as that is the main language here and is used in business. All francophones raised in Timmins speak English just like any anglophone but some have a very small tinge of an accent if they only spoke French at home.

I've seen some do very well when speaking in French with Quebeckers and others who weren't able at all to have a conversation or serve a client. The more educated and well travelled people here can learn to speak Québécois French very quickly. Actually, highly educated francophones here speak pretty much the same way as Quebeckers. But a Franco-Ontarian who was raised in Ontario won't be using many terminologies and expressions that are heard in Quebec because of societal differences.

My kids' Franco-Ontarian cousins sometimes use anglicized expressions that my kids (who do know decent English) don't understand when they are said in French in an otherwise French sentence.

Case in point from last night, while playing a game at New Year's Eve party:

"Tu dois piquer quelqu'un pour jouer avec toi"

My kids scratched their heads, as this means "you must sting someone to play with you".

They would have said: "Tu dois choisir quelqu'un pour jouer avec toi".

Although as the years wear on, they're getting better and better at deciphering this stuff.

Another point I'd add is that as a result of this many francophones outside Quebec aren't always very comfortable speaking French in Quebec or with Québécois people.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by someone123

There also used to be a sense that tourists only want small-town quaintness and rural charm, or at least that's the only reason why they'd ever go to the Maritimes. Consequently there was a lot of rural and small-town-looking marketing for the region.

I saw this video today and it's kind of an interesting counterpoint to this conversation. It is a Halifax-specific ad though, not provincial.

• Video Link

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Sarah89

I think I know what you mean. It's just a more hoser-ish Ontario accent and it's the same in Cambridge. I notice people in Oshawa speak in the same way as Kitchener despite the distance. Another few words I notice are ''gew'' for go, ''jewst'.

I suspect that most ears would not hear much difference in the accent in places between London and Oshawa, not part of GTA. Continue west toward Windsor, or east toward Kingston, and slight differences would start to be noticed.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The franglais capital of Canada is probably Moncton. They even have their own name for it: chiac.

edia.org/wiki/Chiac

Isn't Chiac considered a dialect? I thought it was rather more than just "franglais".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Isn't Chiac considered a dialect? I thought it was rather more than just "franglais".

Depends on one's point of view.

As they say, a language is simply a dialect with an army.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The franglais capital of Canada is probably Moncton. They even have their own name for it: chiac.

edia.org/wiki/Chiac

Probably more Shediac than Moncton (hence the name chiac).

About 20 years ago, there was a legendary case before the law courts in Moncton. A crime had been committed in this particular neighbourhood in Shediac, but the dialect is this little 2-3 square block area of the town was so thick (and so different from "standard" chiac) that special translators had to be brought in to make sure that the trial was fair.........

BTW, Shediac is to Moncton as is Okotoks to Calgary............