The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Truenorth00]

[QUOTE=whatnext;10002064]And now it is being said there are about 500 EV's on the Freemantle Highway! Sucks if you've been waiting for that EV.

Or one of the other 3000 cars on there ....

I'm curious how a boat that had 25 BEVs manifested ended up with 500 onboard.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Here's an interesting new business in Vancouver, opened across the street from the Polestar service centre.

Factor E is Vancouver's first Independent Tesla dealership:​

We provide service, parts and certified pre-owned Tesla sales, all designed to maintain your Tesla warranty.

We have award winning Tesla-trained technicians to fix your Tesla right the first time.
​
We offer quick service with same day or next day turn around. ​

We offer a 15% discount off Tesla's posted labour rates. ​

Best of all, we offer access to real human beings who can answer your Tesla questions and concerns quickly. Our goal is to provide our customers with a peace of mind Tesla ownership experience.​

Interesting. Mine is out of warranty so I may consider these guys if something comes up. They do seem to have some questionable maintenance timeframes on their site.

That said, my experience with Tesla service has been great. They even did a freebie post-warranty.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Here's an interesting new business in Vancouver, opened across the street from the Polestar service centre.

Factor E is Vancouver's first Independent Tesla dealership:​

We provide service, parts and certified pre-owned Tesla sales, all designed to maintain your Tesla warranty.

We have award winning Tesla-trained technicians to fix your Tesla right the first time.
​
We offer quick service with same day or next day turn around. ​

We offer a 15% discount off Tesla's posted labour rates. ​

Best of all, we offer access to real human beings who can answer your Tesla questions and concerns quickly. Our goal is to provide our customers with a peace of mind Tesla ownership experience.​

Interesting. I think as EVs become more ubiquitous, we will start to see more independent EV specific shops opening up. Service technicians will need to undergo training to get EV certified. For higher mileage cars, they could probably even perform battery swaps. We might even see some performance tuning shops open up.

Here's a sample curriculum:
Introduction to Advanced Vehicle Technologies
Development of Electric Vehicles
High Voltage Electrical Safety
High Voltage Vehicle Safety Systems
Hybrid engines
AC Induction Electrical Machines
Permanent Magnet Electrical Machines
Power Inverter Systems
Electric Circuit systems
Electric Propulsion Sensing Systems
DC-DC Converter Systems
Transaxles, Gears and Cooling Systems
Energy Management Hardware Systems
Battery Construction and Technologies
Latest Development in Battery Technologies
Nickel-Metal Hydride Technologies
Lithium Ion Battery
Battery Management Systems
Hybrid Vehicle Regenerative Braking Systems
Electric Car and Hybrid Climate Control Systems
Computer Aided Design (SolidWorks software)
Design and Making an Adapter for an Electric Motor (workshop)
Design and Making a Fiber-Glass Battery Box (workshop)
Conversion of a Internal Combustion Car into a 100% Electric Car (workshop)
First Responder Safety for Emergency Situation
Basic Electric Car Maintenance

[Innsertnamehere]

Does anyone here (particularly those who own EVs) have experience on real-life ranges for EVs for long highway drives?

I regularly make a drive of almost exactly 300km up north to Haliburton, and if I were to buy an EV would want to make sure I could comfortably make that drive in basically any and all weather and driving conditions without stopping, and ideally without pulling into the driveway with 10km left. I'm particularly concerned as the last ~60km are on relatively remote roads which are unlikely to get any level of real fast-chargers any time soon. There is barely even a gas station on the stretch today.

I know most EVs are well into the 400kms today for their published ranges, but also know things like A/C, cold temps, high speed highway driving, and other factors impact it. Would a typical, ~450km range EV reliably be able to make that trip without me having to sweat the last 50km, even if I did the whole drive at 130km/h with the A/C blasting, the car filled with 5 adult guys and all their stuff, and a lead foot?

Even if it's just summer driving I'd be fine with having to stop in the winter as I go up much less frequently.

[homebucket]

^ Also keep in mind that to extend your EV battery's life, remember the 80/20 rule, which means not charging past 80 percent and not letting it drop below 20 percent.

So ~450km of predicted range might actually only be 270 km of actual range until you reach 20%. Of course you can keep going further but then you'll need to balance the long term health of your battery.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I know most EVs are well into the 400kms today for their published ranges, but also know things like A/C, cold temps, high speed highway driving, and other factors impact it. Would a typical, ~450km range EV reliably be able to make that trip without me having to sweat the last 50km, even if I did the whole drive at 130km/h with the A/C blasting, the car filled with 5 adult guys and all their stuff, and a lead foot?

In my experience (85K kms, in BC), the biggest issues are cold and going uphill. The good thing about going uphill, is you eventually go down. Tesla has great regen breaking so you get a lot of power back, I'm not sure about other brands but it's similar.

For the cold thing, you lose range depending on your heat source (resistive heating) can take up a lot, and so can a cold battery (IE left outside overnight in below freezing conditions).

*IF* you have a garage and can preheat the car and the battery, you're in pretty good shape. For Vancouver winters it's not a big deal either way, but other parts of Canada are fine.

As far as speed goes, that depends a lot on the drag of the vehicle. A Tesla 3 has very low drag coefficient, but if you're driving a Kia Soul EV it's going to lose a lot more efficiency at higher speeds.

I don't know specifically where you are going, but there are still lots of fast chargers in remote areas. Check plugshare.com.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In my experience (85K kms, in BC), the biggest issues are cold and going uphill. The good thing about going uphill, is you eventually go down. Tesla has great regen breaking so you get a lot of power back, I'm not sure about other brands but it's similar.

For the cold thing, you lose range depending on your heat source (resistive heating) can take up a lot, and so can a cold battery (IE left outside overnight in below freezing conditions).

*IF* you have a garage and can preheat the car and the battery, you're in pretty good shape. For Vancouver winters it's not a big deal either way, but other parts of Canada are fine.

As far as speed goes, that depends a lot on the drag of the vehicle. A Tesla 3 has very low drag coefficient, but if you're driving a Kia Soul EV it's going to lose a lot more efficiency at higher speeds.

I don't know specifically where you are going, but there are still lots of fast chargers in remote areas. Check plugshare.com.

I've looked and the closest DC fast charger is 63km from my destination. A level 2 is closer, about 40kms, but not exactly desirable other than in a pinch.

I of course could stop and charge on my way, but I typically do that drive with making only one stop for gas in both directions now, and ideally would like to keep it that way. I'm just curious what EV range would realistically be able to do 300km comfortably without any range anxiety.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I'm just curious what EV range would realistically be able to do 300km comfortably without any range anxiety.

The Lucid Air is currently at the top with 830 km of estimated range, but not sure that's within your budget. For more affordable options, you could look at the Hyundai Ioniq 6 with 580 km of range or the Model 3 LR with 535 km of range.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I've looked and the closest DC fast charger is 63km from my destination. A level 2 is closer, about 40kms, but not exactly desirable other than in a pinch.

I of course could stop and charge on my way, but I typically do that drive with making only one stop for gas in both directions now, and ideally would like to keep it that way. I'm just curious what EV range would realistically be able to do 300km comfortably without any range anxiety.

If you have something with an EPA rating of 400kms you'll be absolutely fine doing 300 in the summer, at high speed, with AC, and so on.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Does anyone here (particularly those who own EVs) have experience on real-life ranges for EVs for long highway drives?

I regularly make a drive of almost exactly 300km up north to Haliburton, and if I were to buy an EV would want to make sure I could comfortably make that drive in basically any and all weather and driving conditions without stopping, and ideally without pulling into the driveway with 10km left. I'm particularly concerned as the last ~60km are on relatively remote roads which are unlikely to get any level of real fast-chargers any time soon. There is barely even a gas station on the stretch today.

I know most EVs are well into the 400kms today for their published ranges, but also know things like A/C, cold temps, high speed highway driving, and other factors impact it. Would a typical, ~450km range EV reliably be able to make that trip without me having to sweat the last 50km, even if I did the whole drive at 130km/h with the A/C blasting, the car filled with 5 adult guys and all their stuff, and a lead foot?

Even if it's just summer driving I'd be fine with having to stop in the winter as I go up much less frequently.

With my car, I am regularly able to make it 400KM of highway driving without stopping in the summer (still has 100KM of charge left). And about 350KM in the winter (left with about 75KM).

This is with an average speed of 110-120KM/H. If you go over that, the range does reduce.

[homebucket]

Surprised this hasn't made the rounds here yet. I was wondering why my range was decreasing so quickly when I rented one recently. I thought it was my lead foot (I'm used to driving performance cars) and your usual YMMV, but perhaps it was something more.

A REUTERS SPECIAL REPORT
Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints
About a decade ago, Tesla rigged the dashboard readouts in its electric cars to provide “rosy” projections of how far owners can drive before needing to recharge, a source told Reuters. The automaker last year became so inundated with driving-range complaints that it created a special team to cancel owners’ service appointments.

By STEVE STECKLOW and NORIHIKO SHIROUZU Filed July 27, 2023, 10 a.m. GMT

In March, Alexandre Ponsin set out on a family road trip from Colorado to California in his newly purchased Tesla, a used 2021 Model 3. He expected to get something close to the electric sport sedan’s advertised driving range: 353 miles on a fully charged battery.

He soon realized he was sometimes getting less than half that much range, particularly in cold weather – such severe underperformance that he was convinced the car had a serious defect.

“We’re looking at the range, and you literally see the number decrease in front of your eyes,” he said of his dashboard range meter.

Ponsin contacted Tesla and booked a service appointment in California. He later received two text messages, telling him that “remote diagnostics” had determined his battery was fine, and then: “We would like to cancel your visit.”

What Ponsin didn’t know was that Tesla employees had been instructed to thwart any customers complaining about poor driving range from bringing their vehicles in for service. Last summer, the company quietly created a “Diversion Team” in Las Vegas to cancel as many range-related appointments as possible.

The Austin, Texas-based electric carmaker deployed the team because its service centers were inundated with appointments from owners who had expected better performance based on the company’s advertised estimates and the projections displayed by the in-dash range meters of the cars themselves, according to several people familiar with the matter.

Inside the Nevada team’s office, some employees celebrated canceling service appointments by putting their phones on mute and striking a metal xylophone, triggering applause from coworkers who sometimes stood on desks. The team often closed hundreds of cases a week and staffers were tracked on their average number of diverted appointments per day.

Managers told the employees that they were saving Tesla about $1,000 for every canceled appointment, the people said. Another goal was to ease the pressure on service centers, some of which had long waits for appointments.

In most cases, the complaining customers’ cars likely did not need repair, according to the people familiar with the matter. Rather, Tesla created the groundswell of complaints another way – by hyping the range of its futuristic electric vehicles, or EVs, raising consumer expectations beyond what the cars can deliver. Teslas often fail to achieve their advertised range estimates and the projections provided by the cars’ own equipment, according to Reuters interviews with three automotive experts who have tested or studied the company’s vehicles.

Neither Tesla nor Chief Executive Elon Musk responded to detailed questions from Reuters for this story.

Tesla years ago began exaggerating its vehicles’ potential driving distance – by rigging their range-estimating software. The company decided about a decade ago, for marketing purposes, to write algorithms for its range meter that would show drivers “rosy” projections for the distance it could travel on a full battery, according to a person familiar with an early design of the software for its in-dash readouts.

Then, when the battery fell below 50% of its maximum charge, the algorithm would show drivers more realistic projections for their remaining driving range, this person said. To prevent drivers from getting stranded as their predicted range started declining more quickly, Teslas were designed with a “safety buffer,” allowing about 15 miles (24 km) of additional range even after the dash readout showed an empty battery, the source said.

The directive to present the optimistic range estimates came from Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk, this person said.

“Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged,” the person said, adding: “When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good.”

Tesla’s intentional inflation of in-dash range-meter projections and the creation of its range-complaints diversion team have not been previously reported.

Driving range is among the most important factors in consumer decisions on which electric car to buy, or whether to buy one at all. So-called range anxiety – the fear of running out of power before reaching a charger – has been a primary obstacle to boosting electric-vehicle sales.

...

Tesla isn’t the only automaker with cars that don’t regularly achieve their advertised ranges.

One of the experts, Gregory Pannone, co-authored a study of 21 different brands of electric vehicles, published in April by SAE International, an engineering organization. The research found that, on average, the cars fell short of their advertised ranges by 12.5% in highway driving.

The study did not name the brands tested, but Pannone told Reuters that three Tesla models posted the worst performance, falling short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26%.

The EV pioneer pushes the limits of government testing regulations that govern the claims automakers put on window stickers, the three automotive experts told Reuters.

...

Pannone called Tesla “the most aggressive” electric-vehicle manufacturer when it comes to range calculations.

“I’m not suggesting they’re cheating,” Pannone said of Tesla. “What they’re doing, at least minimally, is leveraging the current procedures more than the other manufacturers.”

Jonathan Elfalan, vehicle testing director for the automotive website Edmunds.com, reached a similar conclusion to Pannone after an extensive examination of vehicles from Tesla and other major automakers, including Ford, General Motors, Hyundai and Porsche.

All five Tesla models tested by Edmunds failed to achieve their advertised range, the website reported in February 2021. All but one of 10 other models from other manufacturers exceeded their advertised range.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...tteries-range/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

We do need to see a bit more diverse offerings in the EV market - which we should be seeing sometime soon? - before I'd really make that call.
....
My neighbour ranted to me about this other day and said he'll only replace his old Corolla with an EV if someone makes a "dumb EV" without all this nonsense.

The world is bigger than Canada.

I just listened to journalist Markham Hislop's interview with Colin McKerracher, Head of Advanced Transport at Bloomberg NEF. BNEF does some of the best industry tracking out there. They put an EV Outlook that includes two scenarios. One is market led and the other is with government intervention. Some of takeaways from that interview were stunning:

• ICEV sales peaked in 2017 and haven't really recovered since. They are in terminal decline.
  
• By 2030, in markets like Europe and China, they see 60-70% of sales as electric.
  
• Most automakers they talked too don't even have designers working on ICEV concepts for past 2030. They are all working on EVs.
  
• China is already at one third marketshare plug in. And this rise of plugins really caught Japanese and Western automakers in China off-guard, impacting one of their most profitable markets. They are now losing marketshare to Chinese automakers focused on EVs.
  
• While the developing world is not buying electric cars, the sales of electric two and three wheelers is she's of 2050 net zero scenarios. And they are even adopting concepts like battery swapping, which don't work for cars. These swaps are even faster than pumping gas.
  
• BNEF assesses transport oil demand peaking in 2027, with global oil demand peaking in 2029.
  
• They don't see EVs substantially driving electricity demand. They estimate about 3-4% additional demand by 2030. And in developed countries this is only making up for declining electricity consumption. So it's not driving new adoption.
  
• All of the above is without governments imposing policy to drive adoption. Just market trends.

I still remember jawagord and accord1999 mocking the idea that 30% of sales would be electric in 2030, when I suggested this a few years ago.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Surprised this hasn't made the rounds here yet. I was wondering why my range was decreasing so quickly when I rented one recently. I thought it was my lead foot (I'm used to driving performance cars) and your usual YMMV, but perhaps it was something more.



https://www.reuters.com/investigates...tteries-range/

Hope they get sued for this fraud.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

...

• By 2030, in markets like Europe and China, they see 60-70% of sales as electric.
  
• Most automakers they talked too don't even have designers working on ICEV concepts for past 2030. They are all working on EVs.
  
• China is already at one third marketshare plug in. And this rise of plugins really caught Japanese and Western automakers in China off-guard, impacting one of their most profitable markets. They are now losing marketshare to Chinese automakers focused on EVs.

...

EVs are only as clean as the power they use, and in China it still has a long way to go. To be fair, there are other benefits to EVs, but as of now, price and resale value are also not among them.


https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=53959

Lately I've noticed a few Rivians around here too, they are hard to mistake when lit up at night.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Architype

EVs are only as clean as the power they use, and in China it still has a long way to go.

Even in China, an EV on their grid is still cleaner than their average car:

This wide-ranging life-cycle assessment (LCA) examines the greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions of passenger cars, including SUVs. Performed separately and in depth for Europe, the United States, China, and India, the analysis captures the differences among those markets, which are home to about 70% of global new passenger car sales. It considers present and projected future GHG emissions attributable to every stage in the life cycles of both vehicles and fuels, from extracting and processing raw materials through refining and manufacture to operation and eventual recycling or disposal.

In addition to its global scope, the study is methodologically comprehensive in considering all relevant powertrain types, including plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), and an array of fuel types including biofuels, electrofuels, hydrogen, and electricity. The life-cycle GHG emissions of cars registered in 2021 are compared with those of cars expected to be registered in 2030.....
.
.
.
Results show that even for cars registered today, battery electric vehicles (BEVs) have by far the lowest life-cycle GHG emissions. As illustrated in the figure below, emissions over the lifetime of average medium-size BEVs registered today are already lower than comparable gasoline cars by 66%–69% in Europe, 60%–68% in the United States, 37%–45% in China, and 19%–34% in India. Additionally, as the electricity mix continues to decarbonize, the life-cycle emissions gap between BEVs and gasoline vehicles increases substantially when considering medium-size cars projected to be registered in 2030.
.
.

https://theicct.org/publication/a-gl...assenger-cars/

I think when talking about China's supposed failings with cleantech Westerners forget the alternatives: poverty or more pollution. Would you rather have them keep developing using exclusively gas cars and only coal power?

I'm not a fan of the regime in China, but their EV policy has been rather forward thinking. Not just on the environmental and industrial side. But also on their national security side, by reducing the demand for imported oil, which mostly comes through chokepoints guarded by US allies.

Originally Posted by Architype

To be fair, there are other benefits to EVs, but as of now, price and resale value are also not among them.

The post was in response to the idea that ICEVs are dead investment. And increasingly data is showing that to be true. People generally suck at looking ahead. We are on the cusp of real sub US$25k EVs from several automakers. This is going to take on a lot of the compact market. Many of these models are coming 2025-2027.

If you're going into a dealership and paying up a full 7 yr financing (not uncommon) on a new ICEV, just know that, you'll not have the residual in 2030 that you imagine. Because a market that is 30-50% BEV is going to start massively discounting used ICEVs. Heck, there's now traders betting on an ICEV value bubble on exactly this thesis.

[logan5]

Rivians are fugly.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Even in China, an EV on their grid is still cleaner than their average car:
...

The post was in response to the idea that ICEVs are dead investment. And increasingly data is showing that to be true. People generally suck at looking ahead. We are on the cusp of real sub US$25k EVs from several automakers. This is going to take on a lot of the compact market. Many of these models are coming 2025-2027.

If you're going into a dealership and paying up a full 7 yr financing (not uncommon) on a new ICEV, just know that, you'll not have the residual in 2030 that you imagine. Because a market that is 30-50% BEV is going to start massively discounting used ICEVs. Heck, there's now traders betting on an ICEV value bubble on exactly this thesis.

^ I wouldn't rely too much on reassuring information from China.

I think that technology will progress (I mean hopefully, because we need this), but this may hasten the depreciation of older EVs more rapidly. There is an optimal balance between producing things which will last (20 years is not unreasonable to expect for a vehicle life span), and adopting newer superior technology, thereby hastening obsolescence. Capitalism relies on this, and not for the greater good. Maintenance costs are much lower with EVs, but battery replacement cost is, so far, prohibitive.

Originally Posted by logan5

Rivians are fugly.

They look unmistakable when lit up.
These characters probably like them though.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Architype

^ I wouldn't rely too much on reassuring information from China.

This isn't Chinese information per se. It's pretty easy to look at the grid mix of a country (which you yourself cited above) and derive carbon intensity, and then calculate lifecycle emissions. This is what the ICCT study does and then compares it average vehicle lifecycle emissions in the given country. I'm fairly sure combustion stoichiometry is the same in China as anywhere else.

They could be lying about 30% of their grid being other than coal and about EV output. But then they'd have to get all the global manufacturers who acknowledge losing sales to Chinese firms onboard with that lie too. I'm not sure why all the world's cleantech and automakers would do that.

Originally Posted by Architype

I think that technology will progress (I mean hopefully, because we need this), but this may hasten the depreciation of older EVs more rapidly. There is an optimal balance between producing things which will last (20 years is not unreasonable to expect for a vehicle life span), and adopting newer superior technology, thereby hastening obsolescence. Capitalism relies on this, and not for the greater good. Maintenance costs are much lower with EVs, but battery replacement cost is, so far, prohibitive.

20 yrs is unreasonable when global lifecycle of vehicles today is 15 yrs. It was mentioned in the podcast that cars get recycled between down to poorer countries. And that's about how long they last.

As for the idea that EV depreciate rapidly, this seems like a leftover idea from 15 years ago when the only EVs were Nissan Leafs with no battery thermal management system and low range to begin with. I would bet a 2023 Tesla Model 3 would hold its value better than any similar size or class ICEV through to 2030. Yes, the tech is improving. But the secondary market is also growing for EVs, while it's going in the opposite direction for ICEVs. That is what is going to keep used BEV values up while tanking used ICEV values. Hence the analogy of buying a horse barn in 1910....

Finally, the battery replacement cost argument is just a red herring at this point. We've now had over a full decade of mainstream consumer EVs in use. Not many have replaced their batteries. The car body is more likely to rust out before the battery needs to be replaced. Most famously, this revelation from 2019, from a shuttle company that put half a million miles on their Teslas. They had six battery replacements across a fleet that did 2.5 million miles. That is averaging about as much as a lifetime of driving for the average consumer . Major fleet operators like Amazon, FedEx or Walmart would not be going full EV if they didn't really think the requisite battery life was there. They get a lot more years and mileage from their vehicles than the average consumer.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

It sounds like you're anti-toxic internet commenting! Get the pitchforks, boys. This one hates progress.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There is some evidence that certain battery designs are more risk. This is also about chemistry, pack design and thermal management systems. All of these things are improving rapidly and we should see declining fire risk over time.

I am hopeful of this as well. I think that once EVs become the mainstream that this level of risk will be deemed unacceptable and probably open the companies to potential lawsuits. So, even if they don't act in the interest of the safety of the public, the threat of legal action should ensure that solving this issue will be a high priority in the industry (I really should try to cut back on my cynicism... ). Regardless, I do have faith in the engineering community and realize that there is a lot of work going into improving the product while also making it safer.

It's also one of the reasons that I'll wait for the large evolutionary changes to occur (and be implemented into production) with EV technology before I jump in (plus I don't drive much and my current vehicles are all in great shape with low mileage). It's coming along, and it's amazing to watch how quickly EVs are evolving, to the point that a 10 year old EV looks like a Model T in comparison to what is on the market now (and in 10 years we probably will be saying the same thing about current EVs). In 20 years people will be telling their children and grand children about the trials and tribulations of owning ICE, and how they almost can't believe that they once had vehicles that needed regular oil changes, etc...