HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Downtown & Urban Ottawa


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #2581  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 3:44 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 27,631
Best case scenario, if we have to go with DCDLS, they buy Trinity's development application, use it as a foundation and make a few modifications by adding their tenants (I'm assuming Ripley's is secured, they are saying the Fly Zone is secured, so whatever, hopefully the YMCA and maybe RVL's Abilities Centre might join in, I liked the media museum, Farm Boy, but we also need a regular grocery store with a wider range of options, maybe a Costco?)

I could live with that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2582  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 3:51 PM
rocketphish's Avatar
rocketphish rocketphish is offline
Planet Ottawa and beyond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Greater Ottawa
Posts: 14,200
What Melnyk said: Since 2014, Senators owner has been mercurial about LeBreton project

Taylor Blewett, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: December 20, 2018


From the moment in late 2014 when Ottawans learned their NHL team would be making a bid to transform LeBreton Flats into a future home for the Ottawa Senators, to the implosion of this plan four years later, team owner Eugene Melnyk has had the city hanging on his every word.

He has been anything but predictable, save for his tendency to make statements that get people talking.

Dec. 15, 2014: “If we’re going to do it, we want to do it right.”

Days after Senators Sports & Entertainment confirmed the group was considering a bid including a new hockey arena in response to the National Capital Commission’s September request for proposals to develop a large swath of LeBreton Flats, Melnyk held off on committing to a proposal submission, but suggested it wasn’t a project his team would enter into lightly.

“We want to be organized, we want to make sure this has been very carefully thought through. This impacts the city in a huge way. It impacts the organization in a huge way. We just need to clearly understand what we’re getting ourselves into, because it is a long-term project and it’s really a game-changer for us.”

He also noted that the Canadian Tire Centre, which opened as The Palladium in 1996, “was not built to last 30 to 40 years.”

“You have to build a new one eventually, I hope in my lifetime. It’s. where do you put it from there?”

Dec. 18, 2015: “This team is mine for life”

Melnyk was unequivocal in his response to the news that DCDLS, the only other group to file a detailed development plan for LeBreton Flats in December 2015, had also included an NHL arena in its vision for the area: Best of luck finding a team.

“Who’s going to play there?” he said. “The team is not for sale and never will be in my lifetime, for sure. … You can’t come into my territory.”

Melnyk, who also owns the Canadian Tire Centre, rejected any suggestion that if RendezVous were to lose the bid for the LeBreton development, the team would move downtown as a tenant in a DCDLS-built arena.

“We need to control the building. Forget the financial part, which is your revenue driver, you have to control things. I don’t want to get permission if I want to do this, nor do I want to pay somebody for that privilege. If we want to do something here, we get it done.”

Jan. 27, 2016: “The total project is going to be a net contributor to the Senators.”

Melnyk made an enticing case to Senators fans for a move downtown, suggesting the new arena’s location would drive an upswing in fan turnout and bring in new revenue streams that could give the Senators an additional $10 million in payroll to play with.

“Imagine if we were able to bring in, and pay for, two power forwards or a forward or a defenceman with an extra $10 million … we can add that (now) and we have cap space, but the team cannot afford it. It’s simple.”

April 28, 2016 : “I know we’re going to deliver everything we said we would.”

Riding high after learning that the NCC had chosen RendezVous LeBreton Group as the preferred bidder in the LeBreton redevelopment competition, Melnyk expressed confidence that the Senators would playing in their new downtown building on the opening night of their 2021-22 hockey season. “You’ll be very proud of this day five years from now and seeing the whole site getting really developed beautifully. You’ll see it pretty quick.”

March 22, 2017: “If it’s Ottawa, it’s got to be downtown.”

In expressing his desire that negotiations with the NCC wrap up by the end of 2017 so they could move on to the approval and building stages of the project, Melnyk emphasized his desire for the Senators to move downtown. When he bought the team in 2003, he said there was nothing he could do about the Canadian Tire Centre’s Kanata location.

“I think there’s only three teams left in the NHL that don’t have a downtown arena, and we’re one of them and it’s tragic that we don’t.”

Dec. 15, 2017: “It wouldn’t be a disaster for us at all if LeBreton didn’t happen.”

With an abrupt about-face in late 2017, Melnyk expressed pessimism about the ability of the NCC and RendezVous LeBreton Group to come to a deal, and suggested LeBreton Flats may not be the best location for a Senators arena. “I don’t trust anything happening our way necessarily,” he cautioned. “I’m not sure downtown is necessarily (the only option).”

April 11, 2018: “It’s a very difficult, much more than I thought, process.”

After renewed optimism following the announcement of an agreement in principle between RendezVous LeBreton Group and the NCC in January 2018, Melnyk hinted all was not well between the involved parties during a town hall with Senators season-ticket holders.

“It’s not the NCC that’s holding it up. They’ve actually been very, very good throughout this whole process. The problems we’re finding there are much more complicated than I can describe to you,” he said, later referencing concerns with development by one of his partners in the area.

Aug. 10, 2018: “We are fully capable of funding our portion of what we need to accomplish.”

After a meeting between Melnyk, Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson and RendezVous partner and Trinity executive chair John Ruddy, Melnyk spoke confidently of the team’s ability to finance its part of the project, and the partnership itself. “As a team effort here, everything that is required can get done.”

Nov. 23, 2018: “The relationship sours”

In a $700-million lawsuit filed by Melnyk against Ruddy on Nov. 23, Melnyk claimed the partnership between the two had been soured for two years, and alleges that Trinity had withheld information about its planned development at nearby 900 Albert St., which the lawsuit alleges would destroy the viability of the LeBreton project.

Nov. 28, 2018: “At no time did CSMI or Eugene Melnyk demand the city build an arena.”

In response to Mayor Jim Watson’s claim that the Ottawa Senators had wanted the city to fund the construction of the LeBreton Flats arena, Senators chief operating officer Nicolas Ruszkowski said Watson’s comments were “disappointing and inaccurate.” RendezVous partners explored the topic in discussions at “city hall’s own urging,” he said.

Dec. 18. 2018: “A proposed solution.”

On the same day a $1-billion countersuit was filed by Ruddy against Melnyk, the Senators’ owner proposed that Trinity build and take in all the revenue from the LeBreton arena if it took on the project’s $500-million construction cost. It was a significant departure from the position Melnyk had taken three years ago, when he insisted his team would not play in someone else’s arena.

The following day, the NCC announced the end of its LeBreton partnership with Melnyk and the rest of the RendezVous LeBreton team.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...breton-project
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2583  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 3:58 PM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Best case scenario, if we have to go with DCDLS, they buy Trinity's development application, use it as a foundation and make a few modifications by adding their tenants (I'm assuming Ripley's is secured, they are saying the Fly Zone is secured, so whatever, hopefully the YMCA and maybe RVL's Abilities Centre might join in, I liked the media museum, Farm Boy, but we also need a regular grocery store with a wider range of options, maybe a Costco?)

I could live with that.
I think that this is a somewhat likely outcome. There has been a lot of planning work done, and it seems silly not to use that work. Perhaps Devcore gets a smaller parcel of the property, and they compete the rest.

I also liked the media centre, though it would seem that CBC and the Citizen are unlikely to leave their current digs, so I'm not sure if it is viable. The Abilities Centre was to be a Sensplex, so that one also seems unlikely.

A Farm Boy would be excellent. Does Costco do urban stores?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2584  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 5:07 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Ottawa (Centretown)
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horus View Post
I'm not sure what the DCDLS group is trying to accomplish by going public with this not-so-shaded legal threat. Doesn't really seem like a good way to get the negotiations going.
Exactly! If I were on the NCC Board and I was considering or even openly supportive of giving DCDLS a chance at this thing, that press release would absolutely kill it for me good and fast. You let somebody bully you into a negotiating table and that's all she wrote. Best case scenario, you waste several months of your time and several million dollars. Worst case scenario, you waste 20 years and billions of dollars in bed with a partner who knows they bullied you into the relationship and that sets a dangerous precedent.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2585  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 5:16 PM
Vixx Vixx is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Wild Rose Country/Worst Case Ontario
Posts: 398
I don't see what is wrong with giving Devcore a chance here. They say they are willing to bend and be open minded here, so let's see what comes out of some negotiations?

I also have a feeling here as alluded earlier that maybe, just maybe, behind closed doors the NHL and Devcore may have some sort of plan that they would love to see implemented. How that would work, who knows, but it does seem a little odd how eager Devcore is to jump back into things 2.5 years after being told by the NCC that their bid was pretty unrealistic.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2586  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 5:43 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 27,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
I think that this is a somewhat likely outcome. There has been a lot of planning work done, and it seems silly not to use that work. Perhaps Devcore gets a smaller parcel of the property, and they compete the rest.

I also liked the media centre, though it would seem that CBC and the Citizen are unlikely to leave their current digs, so I'm not sure if it is viable. The Abilities Centre was to be a Sensplex, so that one also seems unlikely.

A Farm Boy would be excellent. Does Costco do urban stores?
Post Media has recently sold the Citizen/Sun building on Baxter Road. No plan yet to move, but if DCDLS offers a good rate, they might very well. CTV (Bell) contemplated expanding the building in the Market a few years back. They to might be willing to sell the current digs for big money and rent at LeBreton. CBC won't move, considering the purpose-built tower is only 15 years old. LeDroit will likely stay where they are at Times Square.

Costco does have some urban stores, such as the one in Vancouver, across the street from BC Place, Rogers Arena and Stadium-Chinatown Skytrain Station. Quite similar to LeBreton's situation actually, in terms of what surrounds it. I'm not aware of any others off hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixx View Post
I don't see what is wrong with giving Devcore a chance here. They say they are willing to bend and be open minded here, so let's see what comes out of some negotiations?

I also have a feeling here as alluded earlier that maybe, just maybe, behind closed doors the NHL and Devcore may have some sort of plan that they would love to see implemented. How that would work, who knows, but it does seem a little odd how eager Devcore is to jump back into things 2.5 years after being told by the NCC that their bid was pretty unrealistic.
That's the thing. The NCC can't just bend down to DCDLS because they might have legal recourse. If the NCC is too negotiate with DCDLS, it must take a position of power and show that they mean business. It's our way or the highway.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2587  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 7:32 PM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Post Media has recently sold the Citizen/Sun building on Baxter Road. No plan yet to move, but if DCDLS offers a good rate, they might very well.
I’m pretty sure that the Postmedia sale of Baxter road involved a long-term leaseback arrangement.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2588  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 8:34 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 27,631
On December 21, Poulin was on CBC Ottawa Morning to pitch his view as to why the NCC is obligated to negotiate with his group. He seems to think the only reason they lost was because they didn't own the NHL team. Not because the rail line was left uncovered, not because the proposal didn't integrate with the rest of the city, not because they segregated the mixed-use aspects with the dozen mega pavilions on a big empty plaza. Even when he lost in 2016, and the NCC made it clear why RVL was superior to DCDLS, he was still asking why his bid didn't win. You give him a reasonable argument and it's completely ignored. It's hard to take him seriously when he's totally clueless.

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/ottawa-morning
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2589  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2018, 9:34 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radster View Post
How so? Why are people so harsh towards the Devcore bid? I don`t think its worse than the Trinity one at all. Trinity is mainly condos, YAAAAAYYY!!! Devcore had variety as on top of a new arena, they also include a YMCA, daycare, a French elementary school, grocery store, two seniors’ living residences, pavilions featuring an aquarium and urban beach, green space, retail and covering the LRT. Can it be improved? Sure! Hence why negotiations make sense. Is it a garbage unrealistic bid? It is not, so lets not trash it.
I think that’s exactly the problem, they threw everything including the kitchen sink into the bid book, with little thought into how the elements would work together or how they would be paid for.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2590  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 4:35 AM
Harley613's Avatar
Harley613 Harley613 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Aylmer, QC
Posts: 6,869
I have always preferred the DCDLS proposal. I really hope they get the chance to refine it and build it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2591  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 3:09 PM
LeadingEdgeBoomer LeadingEdgeBoomer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley613 View Post
I have always preferred the DCDLS proposal. I really hope they get the chance to refine it and build it.

I agree with the second sentence. The NCC got only two proposals in their original call. What if they start all over again in asking for proposals and nobody replies? It could happen. I doubt that any Canadian consortium could be put together that has more financial backing from billionaires than DCDLS does. The NCC should work with them to refine and improve the original proposal and get it done.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2592  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 3:38 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer View Post
I agree with the second sentence. The NCC got only two proposals in their original call. What if they start all over again in asking for proposals and nobody replies? It could happen. I doubt that any Canadian consortium could be put together that has more financial backing from billionaires than DCDLS does. The NCC should work with them to refine and improve the original proposal and get it done.
It is unclear exactly what these billionaires are bringing to the table. They were very late additions to the bid, made no public appearance, gave no detailed interviews and have provided no details of their role.

Are they investors, philanthropists, just (theoretically) interested in hockey, paid or unpaid endorsements, etc.?

The other investors are pretty small potatoes for a project of this size. Devcore is a mid-sized builder of exurban houses and Mirens is a mid-sized owner of car dealerships (which explains the car-centric development).

I would rather they start over then hand the project over to Devcore without a viable plan. If in fact the billionaires are willing to put big money into the project then they should say something.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2593  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 4:00 PM
LeadingEdgeBoomer LeadingEdgeBoomer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
It is unclear exactly what these billionaires are bringing to the table. They were very late additions to the bid, made no public appearance, gave no detailed interviews and have provided no details of their role.

Are they investors, philanthropists, just (theoretically) interested in hockey, paid or unpaid endorsements, etc.?

The other investors are pretty small potatoes for a project of this size. Devcore is a mid-sized builder of exurban houses and Mirens is a mid-sized owner of car dealerships (which explains the car-centric development).

I would rather they start over then hand the project over to Devcore without a viable plan. If in fact the billionaires are willing to put big money into the project then they should say something.

The way to have your questions answered is for the NCC to enter into talks with these folks and see if a deal on a great project can be reached. Hopefully they can. If the original plan is not viable , then let us tweak it so that it is viable.


If they can not do a deal, then I think the NCC should do what a number of posters on this site have suggested---break up the site into smaller packages and let them. be developed independently.

The first call for proposals on developing a mega project brought only two replies. I doubt that doing it again will elicit many new proposals, or better proposals. Doing the same thing over again and expecting different or better results could be foolish. So do a deal with Devcore, and if that can't be done, Plan B should be to break the site up into smaller projects.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2594  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 4:47 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,636
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer View Post
The way to have your questions answered is for the NCC to enter into talks with these folks and see if a deal on a great project can be reached...

The first call for proposals on developing a mega project brought only two replies. I doubt that doing it again will elicit many new proposals, or better proposals. Doing the same thing over again and expecting different or better results could be foolish. So do a deal with Devcore, and if that can't be done, Plan B should be to break the site up into smaller projects.
I agree with both of these points, but I think a condition of entering into negotiations with Devcore should be proof of financing. Otherwise it could just be a repeat of the RVL process which could waste another 3 years.

To me the fact that only two proposals were received (both led by smallish suburban developers with no experience with this kind of project) is a sign that there was a problem with the NCCs assumptions. Which is why I think the NCC and the city need to have a good think about what they want at Lebreton and have a good think about a strategy to get what they want. Reissuing the same RFP would make no sense at all.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2595  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2018, 5:45 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley613 View Post
I have always preferred the DCDLS proposal. I really hope they get the chance to refine it and build it.
Since the original proposal was accepted, this was not the politically correct position to take on this board. But I was also in the DCDLS camp as well. I liked that there were more attractions than just the arena, although we may have all had reservations about some of them. The Aquarium is a big hit in Toronto and is an attraction for all ages, something that is somewhat lacking with most of our museum attractions.

If the taxpayers will need to invest in an arena, why don't we make it a multi-purpose facility and consider adding the central library as part of the same building? It is a great location close to the water and with excellent views of downtown. I have always had reservations about the hillside location. And it is also awkwardly located, not really downtown and not really part of the Lebreton development. I have always thought of that area between Bank and Bronson as downtown's dead zone. It will be very difficult to make it a lively area.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2596  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2018, 5:36 AM
phil235's Avatar
phil235 phil235 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Since the original proposal was accepted, this was not the politically correct position to take on this board. But I was also in the DCDLS camp as well. I liked that there were more attractions than just the arena, although we may have all had reservations about some of them. The Aquarium is a big hit in Toronto and is an attraction for all ages, something that is somewhat lacking with most of our museum attractions.

If the taxpayers will need to invest in an arena, why don't we make it a multi-purpose facility and consider adding the central library as part of the same building? It is a great location close to the water and with excellent views of downtown. I have always had reservations about the hillside location. And it is also awkwardly located, not really downtown and not really part of the Lebreton development. I have always thought of that area between Bank and Bronson as downtown's dead zone. It will be very difficult to make it a lively area.
I think that the arena will be a multi-purpose facility. I’m having trouble seeing how a library would be a complimentary addition. Why do you think a library should be combined with the arena?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2597  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2018, 1:35 PM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,131
And why not a waterpark, indoor or outdoor, one that can by reached by public transit?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2598  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2018, 3:53 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by eltodesukane View Post
And why not a waterpark, indoor or outdoor, one that can by reached by public transit?
I’m not sure I like the idea of an outdoor water park at LeBreton. They take up a lot of space for a very seasonal activity for a very small target audience. It also isn’t the look I would go for an extension of downtown.

An indoor water park could work, though I wouldn’t want it as the biggest attraction.

Last edited by roger1818; Dec 23, 2018 at 4:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2599  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2018, 5:20 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 18,636
Something like this would be cool, but it would never happen in Ottawa.

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Attractio...n_Romania.html
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2600  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2018, 2:20 PM
eltodesukane eltodesukane is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,131
Yes, not bad! (Therme Bucuresti, Romania)
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Downtown & Urban Ottawa
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:09 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.