The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[ssiguy]

Small wonder EVs are collecting dust..................even with the rebates they are still too damn expensive.

My brother is thinking of getting rid of his 2015 Ford Escape and buying an EV. When he started looking he nearly fainted at the prices. He doesn't drive very much and even with the rebates they would come to around $15 to $20k more and that's a hell of a lot of gas. For it to make financial sense for him, he would have to drive about 10 years before it started paying for itself and then the dreaded battery replacements are needed which cost a king's ransom or if he wants to sell, greatly reduces it's resale value. There are lower maintenance costs for EVs but what the dealers don't mention is that tires need to be replaced more frequently due to the sheer weight of BEV vehicles.

As for the Teslas, yes they are a good car and probably make sense if you are doing a lot of driving but most people don't buy them due to being electric but rather as a status symbol. At least for now, Toyota and Honda are right, hybrids are the way to go. They are only marginally more expensive, get far better fuel economy and acceleration than 100% ICE cars, pollute less, and don't have any of the recharging anxiety or even need which is a big factor for people in apts/condos that don't have access to home recharging.

I live in a condo so right now recharging is not an option but the vehicles will improve in both greater distance and shorter recharging times. That said, I, like many, will not consider an EV until they come down {coming close doesn't qualify} to the price of an ICE or at least a hybrid.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

My BF keeps saying to wait as there will be some cheaper models coming in 2024, Kia and Hyundai are both coming out with smaller models in their EV and Ioniq ranges, expected to be priced below 40,000. fingers crossed.

I agree. Wait it out til the 2024 and 2025 models come out. More options and some Might have better range by then too.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

At least for now, Toyota and Honda are right, hybrids are the way to go. They are only marginally more expensive, get far better fuel economy and acceleration than 100% ICE cars, pollute less, and don't have any of the recharging anxiety or even need which is a big factor for people in apts/condos that don't have access to home recharging...

I compared 2023 V6, four cylinder and four cylinder hybrid Toyota Camry models using the EPA fuel economy comparison website.





By choosing a hybrid over the V6 model one would double the gas mileage, use half the barrels of oil and emit roughly half the GHG emissions.

And if these numbers are correct, one would also get an extra 275 miles/442km range! by choosing the hybrid over the V6 plus amazing savings on fuel costs.

[urbandreamer]

My uncle recently bought a Camry - he didn't have the patience to wait years for a hybrid so got a base gasoline model. He'd been driving a 2001 Avalon for 22 years, and expects the Camry to last just as long.

Today I was looking at the 2024 Ford Bronco Sport: people buying these cars aren't going to trash them in 2035 - government talk can easily change.

Anyway, pretend I'm a rich doctor like my uncle: I'd have bought a Tesla Model 3 LR, or waited a few months for the better redesigned 2024 version.

[Truenorth00]

^ The government isn't asking you to trash your gas car in 2035. Where do people come up with this nonsense? It's only a ban on SALES OF NEW gas only Light Duty Vehicles.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I priced out an electric vehicle, a Hyundai, most after rebates in BC are 40,000 - 45,000. Anyway as I built and priced and estimated down payment and trade in I could get something for around $500/mo. I haven't looked into charging costs but I currently pay about $450-$500 a month for gas so it's doable to get an EV for me. My BF keeps saying to wait as there will be some cheaper models coming in 2024, Kia and Hyundai are both coming out with smaller models in their EV and Ioniq ranges, expected to be priced below 40,000. fingers crossed.

If you are actually spending $450-500/mo on gas, and you anticipate this driving pattern to be maintained for 3+ years, you absolutely should get an EV. You'll basically end up spending $600/mo for car payment and electricity. But you've now got a much newer car that should be more reliable and be cheaper to operate. And at high gas prices, should substantially retain its value. And when payments are done, you'll be paying just $50-100/mo for electricity.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ The government isn't asking you to trash your gas car in 2035. Where do people come up with this nonsense? It's only a ban on SALES OF NEW gas only Light Duty Vehicles.

The same kind of folks perpetuating that believe the government is making us eat bugs! Or that 15 minute city means social engineering instead of living somewhere where most things are within 15 minutes walking distance

[Wigs]

A 2023 Camry 4cyl has substantially better fuel economy and much less oil use and pollution than a 2001 Avalon w/ a 3 Litre V6.

[urbandreamer]

It's 2034 and I can finally afford a new car, but I'm living in rural Quebec near Richmond or Compton: gas or electric?

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

My uncle recently bought a Camry - he didn't have the patience to wait years for a hybrid so got a base gasoline model. He'd been driving a 2001 Avalon for 22 years, and expects the Camry to last just as long.

Today I was looking at the 2024 Ford Bronco Sport: people buying these cars aren't going to trash them in 2035 - government talk can easily change.

Anyway, pretend I'm a rich doctor like my uncle: I'd have bought a Tesla Model 3 LR, or waited a few months for the better redesigned 2024 version.

Is your uncle in residency? Why is he driving around in a 20+ year old Avalon and buying a base Camry as its replacement? Most of the doctors I know are rocking Teslas, BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus, or Porsches.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

It's 2034 and I can finally afford a new car, but I'm living in rural Quebec near Richmond or Compton: gas or electric?

Gas. It'll hold its value better if not increase in value if you buy the right ICE car. Imagine getting your hands on the last ICE Ferrari.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

It's 2034 and I can finally afford a new car, but I'm living in rural Quebec near Richmond or Compton: gas or electric?

Gas for fun if you are an enthusiast, the resale value of both gas or EVs is hard to predict right now because of changing technology.

Originally Posted by homebucket

Is your uncle in residency? Why is he driving around in a 20+ year old Avalon and buying a base Camry as its replacement? Most of the doctors I know are rocking Teslas, BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus, or Porsches.

It depends where you live in Canada. He is in Quebec; EVs are popular there so I imagine there is a good network of charging stations, although he is not in a major city. Being a doctor in Canada is no guarantee of having endless disposable income, considering our housing prices in some areas. If I was in the right market niche for a new sedan right now, my choice might be the 6-speed manual Acura Integra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V_Qm8HHdVY

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

It's 2034 and I can finally afford a new car, but I'm living in rural Quebec near Richmond or Compton: gas or electric?

Whatever you want.

But if you buy gas, you may have a problem using your car to go to Montreal.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...wntown-by-2030

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Is your uncle in residency? Why is he driving around in a 20+ year old Avalon and buying a base Camry as its replacement? Most of the doctors I know are rocking Teslas, BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Lexus, or Porsches.

He's retired and lives in America. His wife, who recently retired at 80, was also a doctor. She drives a 40 year old Mercedes.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

He's retired and lives in America. His wife, who recently retired at 80, was also a doctor. She drives a 40 year old Mercedes.

Ah ok that makes more sense. I know a retired MD who’s still driving around in a 30 year old BMW 3 Series. The older generation are probably going to be the last ones to transition to EV. Most barely even know how to use iPhones and most single tablet based instrument cluster/infotainment systems seen in most EVs are much more difficult to use at rest, let alone when you’re trying to operate it while moving along with all the other distractions on the road. And autonomous driving/driverless technology isn’t quite ready for prime time yet, so it’s probably for the best if these older folks continue to stick with what they’re familiar with.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

My personal experience, FWIW, has only been BEV drivers who wanted the car for either gas savings or cool tech ("Look how fast this Tesla is!"). I don't know a single person who bought an EV at substantial premium for exclusively environmental motivations. Mostly the premium was justified on net savings or performance. Saving the planet was the bonus.

I don't even think this is a bad thing to be honest. It's way easier to motivate people to save money than it is to motivate people to do the right thing.

This makes perfect sense. In the grand scheme of things, my decision to buy a EV or ICE makes absolutely zero difference. But the extra cash I have to shell out for an EV makes a real difference to me personally.

I'd be willing to consider an EV for a secondary vehicle (which never goes on road trips and seldom ever leaves Winnipeg) but there would have to be a price advantage. I would not pay a premium over the cost of an ICE car.

I listened to a segment on the radio this morning where CBC spoke to EV drivers in northern Manitoba... they talked about the challenges that brings, and how they can't drive to Winnipeg for lack of chargers, etc. and I thought "why would you do that to yourself?" In a world where billionaires zip around on private jets and megayachts, you would take on that much personal sacrifice in terms of cost and limited functionality for an absolutely inconsequential environmental benefit?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I agree. Wait it out til the 2024 and 2025 models come out. More options and some Might have better range by then too.

What models? Most manufacturers would be starting the hype train for 2024 now. The only noteworthy thing I've seen is the VW Van, but that will be expensive.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What models? Most manufacturers would be starting the hype train for 2024 now. The only noteworthy thing I've seen is the VW Van, but that will be expensive.

I'm personally waiting to see Mini and Fiat's new EVs and which ones they bring to Canada. My wife wants one of those brands. And so I promised her that would be our next vehicle.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

This makes perfect sense. In the grand scheme of things, my decision to buy a EV or ICE makes absolutely zero difference. But the extra cash I have to shell out for an EV makes a real difference to me personally.

I'd be willing to consider an EV for a secondary vehicle (which never goes on road trips and seldom ever leaves Winnipeg) but there would have to be a price advantage. I would not pay a premium over the cost of an ICE car.

I listened to a segment on the radio this morning where CBC spoke to EV drivers in northern Manitoba... they talked about the challenges that brings, and how they can't drive to Winnipeg for lack of chargers, etc. and I thought "why would you do that to yourself?" In a world where billionaires zip around on private jets and megayachts, you would take on that much personal sacrifice in terms of cost and limited functionality for an absolutely inconsequential environmental benefit?

Yeah. I'll say there's the online EV driver and early mainstream EV driver. The online group are basically EVangelicals. They care about the environment and will advocate for EVs at almost any cost. Some overlap with the Musk fanboys who will literally argue that anything Tesla does is the best thing since sliced bread (even giving them half a steering wheel). Heck, I fall into this group sometimes. Early mainstream EV buyers are basically just past first adopters. They'll probably pay a small premium for an EV (say $5k). But they probably want to see it net out in a reasonable amount of time (say 2-3 years). Math that requires them to drive 25 000 km per year for 5 yrs before netting out isn't going to work.

Watching my brother's decision process to go from CX-9 to Kona Electric was revealing to me. Shows how a regular consumer would think about the cost differential. And even here it involved someone like me showing him the math on fuel consumption to reassure him this was a financially sound decision.

[Truenorth00]

Seven major automakers are teaming up on a North American EV charging network / BMW, GM, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, and Stellantis are creating a joint venture to launch a public charging network in North America.

...

The grand plan for the currently unnamed partnership is to install “at least” 30,000 high-speed EV chargers by 2030, with the first ones to open summer 2024 in the US. The collective plans to leverage National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) funding in the US and will also use other private and public funding from state and federal sources to build out the network.

Current EV charging networks, from Tesla Superchargers to Electrify America, have stations installed in places where people can shop, eat, and use the bathroom. In a similar fashion, these new chargers will also be installed along routes to vacation destinations and in metropolitan areas.

The new stations will connect and charge EV models made by the partnered automakers without having to fumble with another charging station app. The companies also plan to integrate the developing “Plug and Charge” standard that the Federal Highway Administration is attempting to standardize.

...

Canadians will have to wait for “a later stage” before initial stations are installed. All stations will include the standardized Tesla North American Charging Standard (NACS) ports and also the current widely used Combined Charging System (CCS) plugs.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/26/2...arging-network

They should simply buy Electric America/Canada from VW and improve it.

For me, these are the gold standard to aim for:

• Video Link

• Video Link