YVR And Sea Island Developments Discussion II

[zahav]

For the month of August, AA is adding four additional weekly flights to DFW. On Thu, Fri, Sat, and Sun they will add a red eye, so four days a week there will be 4x daily flights, all on A321. The other three days are 3x daily. Pretty sure 3x is the maximum daily frequency ever operated by AA, so good to see this little add-on. Not much, but a nice little vote of confidence. Plus CLT on the 321 this summer as well, and of course the daily ORD (737) and LAX (319). They cut PHX some time ago, part of a general shifting of capacity away from PHX. It is an odd duck as hub for AA, and really only exists as a remanant of the America West/US Airways legacy which AA purchased. Here's an excerpt on it:

The holding companies of American and US Airways merged effective December 9, 2013.[4] The combined airline carried the American Airlines name and branding and maintained the existing US Airways hubs for a period of at least five years under the terms of a settlement with the Department of Justice and several state attorneys general.

So they had to keep PHX for five years, but that is long past. I think they will probably just keep the status quo, who knows how the domestic does. AA definitely slashed transborder to Canada, they don't operate anything anymore, and they used to do YVR, YEG, YYC, and YYZ at least? (correct me if that's wrong). I think a couple things work against PHX. First is that they are right in between LAX and DFW, two giant AA hubs. So PHX isn't really serving a purpose. It isn't a hub style airport or destination, at least for legacy carriers. Case in point, this was their traffic breakdown by.carrier last year:

1 American Airlines 15,301,000 34.34%
2 Southwest Airlines 15,004,000 33.67%

American is not even a clear first for traffic, airlines like Southwest are the real matches for PHX, not a legacy carrier. But AA could be perfectly happy with how PHX is for them, it would just be an outlier compared to airports like LAX, DFW, ORD, PHL, JFK, MIA, CLT, which are very obviously operating as hubs.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by zahav

For the month of August, AA is adding four additional weekly flights to DFW. On Thu, Fri, Sat, and Sun they will add a red eye, so four days a week there will be 4x daily flights, all on A321. The other three days are 3x daily. Pretty sure 3x is the maximum daily frequency ever operated by AA, so good to see this little add-on. Not much, but a nice little vote of confidence. Plus CLT on the 321 this summer as well, and of course the daily ORD (737) and LAX (319). They cut PHX some time ago, part of a general shifting of capacity away from PHX. It is an odd duck as hub for AA, and really only exists as a remanant of the America West/US Airways legacy which AA purchased. Here's an excerpt on it:

The holding companies of American and US Airways merged effective December 9, 2013.[4] The combined airline carried the American Airlines name and branding and maintained the existing US Airways hubs for a period of at least five years under the terms of a settlement with the Department of Justice and several state attorneys general.

So they had to keep PHX for five years, but that is long past. I think they will probably just keep the status quo, who knows how the domestic does. AA definitely slashed transborder to Canada, they don't operate anything anymore, and they used to do YVR, YEG, YYC, and YYZ at least? (correct me if that's wrong). I think a couple things work against PHX. First is that they are right in between LAX and DFW, two giant AA hubs. So PHX isn't really serving a purpose. It isn't a hub style airport or destination, at least for legacy carriers. Case in point, this was their traffic breakdown by.carrier last year:

1 American Airlines 15,301,000 34.34%
2 Southwest Airlines 15,004,000 33.67%

American is not even a clear first for traffic, airlines like Southwest are the real matches for PHX, not a legacy carrier. But AA could be perfectly happy with how PHX is for them, it would just be an outlier compared to airports like LAX, DFW, ORD, PHL, JFK, MIA, CLT, which are very obviously operating as hubs.

I don't know where you're getting your info, but PHX is a big AA hub, and they are the leading carrier at the airport, bar none.

Sure they've canceled all of their Canada service from there, but that simply illustrates the weakness of the AA hub at PHX in competing with the Canadian carriers, which dominate Canada POS to Arizona. PHX isn't well placed to take that traffic from Canada and feed it elsewhere in the US. Plenty of better hubs for AA to do that.

Also, don't forget that Canadian carriers -in general- own the US-Canada market. They have 70% of the market share.

PHX calendar year 2023 stats

Total pax: 48.6 million passengers (all time record for the airport)
Aircraft movements: 454,665 movements

AA carried 19.5 million passengers
WN carried 15.9 million passengers

Page 46.

https://www.skyharbor.com/media/0kam...stats-2023.pdf

[msmariner]

PHX, DEN and even SLC all have massive domestic schedules and shockingly small (relatively small) international numbers. I don’t have numbers to back it up but I’d bet YYC has larger international numbers than those 3 airports. Definitely on locations to Europe/Asia/Latin America;Caribbean and total amount of passengers. It’s awesome using those airports if you need to get to anywhere in the US though.

[zahav]

I got my information on Phoenix from the Wikipedia section on market share, I didn't make it up:

Airline market share
Top airlines at PHX
(December 2022 - November 2023)
Rank Airline Passengers Percent of market share
1 American Airlines 15,301,000 34.34%
2 Southwest Airlines 15,004,000 33.67%
3 Delta Air Lines 3,333,000 7.48%
4 United Airlines 2,562,000 5.75%
5 Frontier Airlines 2,480,000 5.56%
6 Others 5,881,000 13.20%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoeni...Annual_traffic

And I certainly didn't mean to say they don't have major operations there, they obviously are well connected regionally. I just mean compared to how many of AA's other hubs are comprised, PHX is a bit of an outlier. Yes the lack of international is the main one (London is the sole transcontinental airport), but also it's relative closeness to DFW, which is such a behemoth and is a main east-west connector. Other hubs share traffic with other big full service carriers (ie. LAX, JFK, ORD) because of their sheer size and market importance, which can handle multiple legacy carriers hubs, but usually airports do not come that close with a "low cost" domestic carrier like Southwest almost beating them.

[thenoflyzone]

Didn't imply you made it up.

When it comes to wiki, you should always check the source material. In this case, the source is the same document as what I posted above, but from 2020. So obviously someone updated the numbers, incorrectly, and then didn't even bother to update the source.

I'll update that, correctly, when I get the chance.

Edit: It's done. AA has a 40% market share at PHX. Not quite fortress hub territory, but not weak either. WestJet and Air canada are the 8th and 9th largest airlines in PHX in terms of market share. #1 and 2 in terms of foreign carriers. I added them to the list.

Originally Posted by msmariner

PHX, DEN and even SLC all have massive domestic schedules and shockingly small (relatively small) international numbers. I don’t have numbers to back it up but I’d bet YYC has larger international numbers than those 3 airports. Definitely on locations to Europe/Asia/Latin America;Caribbean and total amount of passengers. It’s awesome using those airports if you need to get to anywhere in the US though.

That's usually the case with all US and Canadian airports.

That's why YYZ is only the 17th busiest airport in North America in terms of total passengers, but all of YYZ/YUL/YVR are in the top 15 in terms of international passengers.

[osirisboy]

Passenger numbers for March are out, surprised to see domestic decrease

https://www.yvr.ca/-/media/yvr/docum...fic-update.pdf

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Passenger numbers for March are out, surprised to see domestic decrease

https://www.yvr.ca/-/media/yvr/docum...fic-update.pdf

So far YEG/YYC/YOW/YWG have also all seen domestic decreases in March.

[nname]

B6 add MINT service for YVR-JFK from July 21
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/240508-b6jul24yvr

[trofirhen]

How many jet bridges does YVR have (including the Seattle satellite terminal). Numbers say a lot. Thank you.

[nname]

South terminal
1 (ground)
2 (ground)
3 (ground)
4 (ground)

Domestic terminal
6 (ground)
7 (ground)
8 (ground)
9 (ground)
10 (ground)
12 (ground)
13 (bridge)
14 (widebody bridge)
15 (bridge)
16 (bridge)
17 (bridge)
18 (bridge)
19 (bridge)
20 (bridge)
21 (bridge)
22 (bridge)
23 (ground)
24 (ground)
25 (ground)
26 (bridge)
27 (bridge)
29 (bridge)
30 (bridge)
31 (bridge)
32 (ground)
33 (ground)
34 (ground)
35 (ground)
36 (ground)
37 (ground)
38 (ground)
39 (bridge)
40 (bridge)
41 (bridge)
42 (bridge)
43 (bridge)
44 (widebody bridge)
45 (bridge)
46 (widebody bridge)
47 (widebody bridge)
48 (widebody bridge)
49 (widebody bridge)

International terminal
50 (double bridge)
51 (double bridge)
52 (double bridge)
53 (widebody bridge)
54 (widebody bridge)
55 (double bridge)
56 (remote)
57 (remote)
58 (double bridge)
59 (remote)
60 (remote)
61 (remote)
62 (double bridge)
63 (remote)
64 (double bridge)
65 (remote)
66 (double bridge)
67 (double bridge)
68 (double bridge)
69 (double bridge)
70 (widebody bridge)
71 (widebody bridge)
72 (widebody bridge)
73 (widebody bridge)
74 (widebody bridge)
75 (widebody bridge)
76 (widebody bridge)
77 (widebody bridge)
78 (widebody bridge)
79 (widebody bridge)
80 (bridge)
81 (bridge)
82 (bridge)
83 (bridge)
84 (remote)
85 (bridge)
86 (bridge)
87 (bridge)
88 (bridge)
90 (bridge)
91 (bridge)
92 (bridge)
93 (ground)
94 (ground)
95A (ground)
95B (ground)
96 (ground)

Total 93 gates with 25 ground-loading, 8 remote, and 60 bridges (29 supports widebody and 11 double-loading bridges)

All data from NAV Canada chart and google satellite view.

[trofirhen]

Thank you, nname. / I wonder how, in relation to terminal size and volume, this number of gates compares with other airports in its range. SAN? ARN? ... I'd be very interested to know how YVR ranks on this metric.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you, nname. / I wonder how, in relation to terminal size and volume, this number of gates compares with other airports in its range. SAN? ARN? ... I'd be very interested to know how YVR ranks on this metric.

SAN….As in San Diego? I live there part of the year and do 15/20 flights/year out of there. They are in the middle of a renovation but it’s not a big airport at all
One runway
50 gates
24 million passengers a year I think ?
Any flight I’ve taken out of there has always been slammed
Really limited landslides space they are dealing with but plane viewing out of balboa is spectacular

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

SAN….As in San Diego? I live there part of the year and do 15/20 flights/year out of there. They are in the middle of a renovation but it’s not a big airport at all
One runway
50 gates
24 million passengers a year I think ?
Any flight I’ve taken out of there has always been slammed
Really limited landslides space they are dealing with but plane viewing out of balboa is spectacular

Thank you, moosejaw // That 24 million passengers per year is, I suppose, large thanks to the large interior US domestic market. // I know that SAN has a number of overseas destinations, but not as many as YVR. // Still, I wonder how the YVR terminals stack up in building size and loading capacity compared to other airports around the world. "Medium-ish" might be accurate, no?

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you, moosejaw // That 24 million passengers per year is, I suppose, large thanks to the large interior US domestic market. // I know that SAN has a number of overseas destinations, but not as many as YVR. // Still, I wonder how the YVR terminals stack up in building size and loading capacity compared to other airports around the world. "Medium-ish" might be accurate, no?

So San Diego has a giant convention base, I mean huge….. it competes with Chicago Indianapolis Nashville and Orlando. The weather the best in the country is hard to beat. I’ve been in Los Angeles and San Diego in the same summer day and it’s a world of difference Lots of advantages there are 70,000 hotel rooms. The airport is an $18 Uber fare from downtown. The food fare is fantastic not as diverse as Vancouver but there are so many bars and restaurants I could eat at a new place every day for six months. Ironically there are five New Zealand style restaurants in SD county. I have a 10 game pack to the padres. Probably best baseball experience in the country.

Honestly SAN doesn’t have a lot of overseas destinations.
SAN is a very small small airport. Currently they offer a flight to London and a flight to Tokyo. That’s it. Before Covid Lufthansa and Air France flew in daily. Out of 24 million, 1 million are international passengers and that includes Mexico and Canada.

In terms of terminal size very dated. Terminal 2 is newer than YVR yet is a postmodern mishmash and its layout is just okay. Lots of long walks going no where convienent. Terminal 1 was a typical California terminal similar to the old Alaskan terminal 4 at LAX or Palm Springs (PSP). Crowded narrow and uninviting. It’s been torn down and they are building a real nice modern terminal but I doubt it will come close to what YVR is currently. There is absolutely no room to expand. You can’t add any more gates can’t add a runway. They are stuck where they are at. Beautiful city tho. Traffic flow is very manageable. It’s one city where there isn’t a lot of traffic downtown. Most intersections are controlled by stop signs. Other than the military, healthcare, two brewing companies there isn’t much business in San Diego. Most hi rises are hotels or condos.

San Diego also has Tijuana Intl Airport (TIJ) right on the border. It serves 14 million passengers a year and you can access it from the US side and cross into Mexico inside at the airport terminal. It’s a very safe and convenient location but not as huge as say Cancun or Benito Juarez. Pre Covid it was a stop point for Beijing to Mexico City. In fact the US first Covid patient came from China into TJ in December 2019. Didn’t think much of it at the time. From TJ you can go pretty much anywhere in Latin America via Panama or Mexico City. Lots of gringoes live in TJ and they don’t even speak Spanish. Rent is $1000 cheaper, their children’s education is great. It’s safe/guarded and a 40 minute commute into SD for a lot of trades I work with.

I am still in Miami though but I refuse to do any work here. It’s just too corrupt in my industry. Much prefer working on the west coast. Hope that helps

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you, nname. / I wonder how, in relation to terminal size and volume, this number of gates compares with other airports in its range. SAN? ARN? ... I'd be very interested to know how YVR ranks on this metric.

# of gates usually has a direct correlation with number of runways, and therefore # of movements per hour the airport is capable of handling.

Airports with parallel runways usually have a capacity of around 35-40 arrivals and 35-40 departures an hour. So anywhere from 70 to 80 movements an hour.

Usually a turn around at the gate takes 1 hour. (Southwest can turn 737s in under 40 minutes apparently, but that's not the case here in Canada). Also, widebodies usually need at least 1.5 to 2 hours for a turn.

So an airport that mostly sees narrowbodies, and has parallel runways, would need at least 70 to 80 gates in order to accomodate all the movements it gets at peak times.

If that airport has more widebodies, it would need more gates. This is why LHR and DXB need, and in fact, have, more gates (over 120 each I think), even though they have 2 runways each.

SAN only has 1 runway, and mostly sees narrowbodies. Coupled with the quick turn around times seen in the US, means they don't need as many gates as YVR.

Originally Posted by moosejaw

Honestly SAN doesn’t have a lot of overseas destinations.
SAN is a very small small airport. Currently they offer a flight to London and a flight to Tokyo. That’s it. Before Covid Lufthansa and Air France flew in daily.

you have LH/MUC as well.

AF never served SAN on a permanent basis. Always one offs/limited time service. They have 2 such flights coming up next month, in fact.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

you have LH/MUC as well.

AF never served SAN on a permanent basis. Always one offs/limited time service. They have 2 such flights coming up next month, in fact.

Yup forgot about that one. Those Germans probably love Legoland and or Shamu

[nname]

Some Long-Haul updates:

BKK S24 AC plans to resume the route 2 weeks early on Oct 13, 2-3x weekly

HKG W24 CX switch from 77W to 359, 12x weekly for Nov, increase to 2x daily by Dec

ZRH S25 WK resume the route 3x weekly May 11, increase to 6x weekly from late-May and daily from mid-June until end of season

ZRH schedule is checked from AC system as AC6000, operate with 343 till end of June, and "unknown" aircraft from July

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by nname

Some Long-Haul updates:

BKK S24 AC plans to resume the route 2 weeks early on Oct 13, 2-3x weekly

HKG W24 CX switch from 77W to 359, 12x weekly for Nov, increase to 2x daily by Dec

ZRH S25 WK resume the route 3x weekly May 11, increase to 6x weekly from late-May and daily from mid-June until end of season

ZRH schedule is checked from AC system as AC6000, operate with 343 till end of June, and "unknown" aircraft from July

ZRH on the 343 is Edelweiss, right?

[owenf]

Originally Posted by whatnext

ZRH on the 343 is Edelweiss, right?

yes WK ZRH-YVR is edelweiss, and from July onwards they’ll operate their new A350s

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by owenf

yes WK ZRH-YVR is edelweiss, and from July onwards they’ll operate their new A350s

Time for enthusiasts to get their last A343 rides then! Always loved the sloooow climb-out when AC had them.