Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Closer to home.... My favourite think tank (that I actually subscribe to) and one of my favourite defence analysts was asked to look at Canada's fighter force and found some major problems. None of this is a surprise to anybody in uniform. But could be news to the public.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericteg...in-crisis/amp/

Just took a look at ADM-IE project brief for FFC. Very ambitious. So I expect our new fighters to be based at Elemdorf AK until the proper facilities are ready at Cold Lake and Bagotville. (I'm only slightly sarcastic!)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Just took a look at ADM-IE project brief for FFC. Very ambitious. So I expect our new fighters to be based at Elemdorf AK until the proper facilities are ready at Cold Lake and Bagotville. (I'm only slightly sarcastic!)

I'm looking forward to some interesting discussions when the Americans decide that need to base fighters, refuellers and AEW in Canada to make the Arctic approaches to the continent are properly protected, since they don't trust us to do our job anymore.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Having grown up in the UAE with Palestinian classmates, I'm well aware of the racial and religious hierarchy in that part of the world.

Local Arabs > Gulf Arabs > Whites > other Arabs > Asian Muslims > Other Asians > Palestinians > Blacks.

I lived in Abu Dhabi for a couple years, 10+ years ago. At that time, within the expat community, there were the following terms in order of acceptance ...

WAG'is
AAG'is
BRAG'is
BLAG'is

WAG=white acceptable guest ... namely a westerner working in a white collar job that kinda help the Emiratis and worked in an office related job
AAG=asian acceptable guest ... namely an Indonesian or other "nice" muslim country that held jobs like nannies or house keepers
BRAG = brown acceptable guest ... namely someone from Pak, Bang, India or Sri Lanka doing manual labour
BLAG = black acceptable guest ... doing the lowest of the low (including acceptable prostitution). In 2011, there was at least one instance of an Emeriti beating her BRAGi to death and by paying blood money to her family in Nigeria avoided a criminal record.

Gotta love that part of the world .... curious as to why they aren't opening their doors to Palestinian refugees?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Gotta love that part of the world .... curious as to why they aren't opening their doors to Palestinian refugees?

The GCC countries have a combined population of 66M and a combined GDP (PPP) of $3.7T. they could literally take in every Palestinian without breaking a sweat. They could literally buy peace with Israel through aid to Palestine if they wanted. But they don't. And anybody who has lived in that part of the world knows exactly why. But do they ever love to protest about injustices in Palestine.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But they don't. And anybody who has lived in that part of the world knows exactly why. But do they ever love to protest about injustices in Palestine.

But the West ....

[whatnext]

China caught dangerously harassing Canadian Armed Forces again:

Canada condemns Chinese conduct after fighter jet launches flares in front of Canadian aircraft
STEVEN CHASE SENIOR PARLIAMENTARY REPORTER
PUBLISHED 3 HOURS AGO
FOR SUBSCRIBERS

Canada’s defence minister is accusing Beijing of unprofessional and unsafe conduct after a Chinese warplane fired flares in front of a Canadian helicopter flying over international waters in the South China sea.

Canadian frigate HMCS Ottawa was sailing near the Paracel Islands on Sunday as part of what Defence Minister Bill Blair said are exercises intended to part to promote “freedom of navigation” in international waterways.

A Canadian military CH-148 helicopter was flying nearby, also on exercise, when a J-11 fighter jet from the People’s Liberation Army appeared and fired flares directly in front of it.

The Canadian pilot “had to manoeuvre to avoid the flares and reduce the risk of ingesting a flare into the helicopter’s rotor and intakes,” Mr. Blair told reporters Friday.

It was one of two incidents that day where Chinese fighter planes flew dangerously close to intercept the Canadian helicopters.....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...hes-flares-in/

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by someone123

The level of popular support for Hamas in Gaza is a mystery but at the end of the day they run the government and decide when to fire the rockets. I don't think there is an independent Haredim military force that will unilaterally attack Gaza. The Israeli government keeps a lid on that potential stuff. Something to consider for people who say it would be so great if there were no Israel.

Hardly. The Israeli government actively arms Israeli settlers with military grade rifles and the IDF supports them in harassing, injuring and killing Palestinians. And while the degree of violence from settlers and the IDF in the West Bank varies according to rising and easing tensions, it has been actively ongoing for 50+ years, resulting in thousands of casualties. This is well documented.

The difference between the Oct 7 attack from Hamas and the IDF/Settler violence against Palestinians is like an acute vs chronic injury, respectively. The overall damage is of similar scale, but the chronic injury appears less severe because it happens gradually over time through multiple small-scale events, while the other happens suddenly in a single event.

Originally Posted by someone123

I think there are valid criticisms of Israel but the lists of grievances don't necessarily connect with current events in a concrete way. Israel's leaders have to operate under constraints like trying to minimize deaths of their own citizens. You're not going to get something like Israel bombing Gaza 5% less because the list of West Bank grievances was a bit worse this year. It's just not a useful framework for looking at what's happening.

Anyone who's followed this conflict beyond just the recent events knows all of it is connected. What happens in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza impacts the state of affairs in the other. When there are tensions over violent crackdowns on Palestinians at Al-Aqsa during Ramadan, which seems to happen annually, Hamas gets riled up and starts firing rockets again. Everytime Israel announces new plans to expand or build new settlement communities, Hamas fires rockets again. The only difference now is that Hamas violence has reached unprecedented levels.

Originally Posted by someone123

And there's something about trotting out the list of grievances against a group as they're counting up the dead babies from a large-scale terrorist attack. Chances are if you do this you are not dispassionate about said group.

Precisely my point in trying to dispel your characterization of Israel as comparatively less guilty of heinous violence against civilians that is rooted in religious extremism and supremacist ideology. Palestinians haven't stopped picking up the dead bodies of their children, relatives and friends for many decades, or fighting to free the ones that have been arbitrarily detained and held indefinitely with no charges and devoid of due process.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Anyone who's followed this conflict beyond just the recent events knows all of it is connected. What happens in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza impacts the state of affairs in the other. When there are tensions over violent crackdowns on Palestinians at Al-Aqsa during Ramadan, which seems to happen annually, Hamas gets riled up and starts firing rockets again. Everytime Israel announces new plans to expand or build new settlement communities, Hamas fires rockets again. The only difference now is that Hamas violence has reached unprecedented levels.

We could ask if we think Gaza and Hamas would essentially become peaceful if Israel stopped settling new areas, displacing Palestinians, controlling the Gaza border, and so on. I don't think Israelis are convinced. There's probably no way for Israelis to have any guarantees around that.

We can say it would be nice to go back in time and for Israelis to do different things but alas.

Precisely my point in trying to dispel your characterization of Israel as comparatively less guilty of heinous violence against civilians that is rooted in religious extremism and supremacist ideology. Palestinians haven't stopped picking up the dead bodies of their children, relatives and friends for many decades, or fighting to free the ones that have been arbitrarily detained and held indefinitely with no charges and devoid of due process.

Not sure what to make of this or what you are arguing (I guess you are saying Israel is more guilty than Palestinians, not Hamas? I didn't intend to address this question and it seems like a weird framing to me). You seem to be reading a lot into my posts.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by someone123

We could ask if we think Gaza and Hamas would essentially become peaceful if Israel stopped settling new areas, displacing Palestinians, controlling the Gaza border, and so on. FWIW I am not very convinced. More fundamentally there's probably no way for Israelis to have any guarantees around that.

We can say it would be nice to go back in time and for Israelis to do different things but alas.

There's no easy answers, but peace and Hamas are definitely not compatible. Hamas has to go. The question is how do you do that without a level of death and destruction that won't create a new generation of Gazans bent on revenge and susceptible to extremist indoctrination that will only serve to continue the cycle of violence?

I think part of it comes down to Israel taking a good faith stance and showing Palestinians a realistic path to peace and statehood. This all starts with the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Ending the expansion of settlements would go a long way. The way I see it, it kind of comes down to the carrot and stick metaphor. Israel has been using a stick, and it's done nothing to reduce violence or humanitarian issues. Maybe it's time to start using a carrot to incentivize behaviour conducive to establishing lasting peace and a two-state solution.

Originally Posted by someone123

Not sure what to make of this or what you are arguing. You seem to be reading a lot into my posts and coming at this from some kind of general Israel vs. Palestine culture war perspective. I don't follow that stuff or belong to one of those teams.

I'm coming at it from a big picture perspective. You had originally pointed out how religion and politics underpin the violence from the Hamas side, and I fully agree with that statement. My response was simply to point out how religious extremism and hardline politics have also played a role in violence from the Israeli side, which is inextricably linked to the current conflict, whether that seems evident to you or not.

[Wigs]

https://t.co/GNrMPKFa8K


https://t.co/PKfoTUwGgA

The latest estimate of Palestinians killed in the West Bank since October 7th is 134.

[niwell]

If anyone is concerned about the West Bank ever siding with Hamas the above should be worrying.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by niwell

If anyone is concerned about the West Bank ever siding with Hamas the above should be worrying.

Indeed it's Fatah/PA territory with Ramallah as the defacto Palestinian capital. Flashback with Rick Steves when Palestinians in the West Bank were filled with hope for a brighter future
• Video Link


For anyone interested here's the full 26 min segment on Palestine
• Video Link

[savevp]

Originally Posted by niwell

If anyone is concerned about the West Bank ever siding with Hamas the above should be worrying.

The ease with which Palestinians have continually sided with terrorist organisations is probably why Israelis feel they can't have a "free Palestine" next door.

The rise of Hamas in the unoccupied Gaza strip is proof enough. Let the West Bank be "free" and watch the rockets start flying.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by savevp

The rise of Hamas in the unoccupied Gaza strip is proof enough. Let the West Bank be "free" and watch the rockets start flying.

Then what is your solution for the Palestinian people?

Note that I am not an apologist for Palestinian terrorism, and I fully support Israel's right to self defence. I understand that the response to the Hamas attack on Israel will necessarily be harsh and bloody.

At the same time, there are still millions of Palestinians deserving a homeland of their own. Some version of the "two state solution" is the only option. This will necessarily mean giving the Palestinians complete control over the West Bank. It is only the minor issues around the edges of this solution that are open for debate.

[Acajack]

A future where our history books say that Hamas were the good guys now seems far less remote.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A future where our history books say that Hamas were the good guys now seems far less remote.

However this ends Isreal is much more likely to be more generous in any peace deal now than on October 6. There is a reassessment of the ability of the value of technology vs a peace deal to keep them safe. Hamas has changed to paradigm. Sure, probably into another cycle of violence and pain rather than a durable lasting peace but maybe they get destroyed and out of the ashes both sides are willing to make the hard compromises needed for peace.

[Hybrid247]

It was really refreshing to hear Joy Reid's piece on the whole situation in the below video. She had lot of sensible takes that I wish were more commonplace in mainstream rhetoric.

• Video Link

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Then what is your solution for the Palestinian people?

Note that I am not an apologist for Palestinian terrorism, and I fully support Israel's right to self defence. I understand that the response to the Hamas attack on Israel will necessarily be harsh and bloody.

At the same time, there are still millions of Palestinians deserving a homeland of their own. Some version of the "two state solution" is the only option. This will necessarily mean giving the Palestinians complete control over the West Bank. It is only the minor issues around the edges of this solution that are open for debate.

Full Palestinian civilian independence - the expansion of the Palestinian Authority to territorially cover the entirety of the West Bank (or rather, the equivalent of such with land swaps) and full independence to control its own finances and such, but with Israel continuing to have security/military control. Essentially turning the entire West Bank into Area B.

That's not a permanent fix, but it's a pretty tolerable temporary one.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Full Palestinian civilian independence - the expansion of the Palestinian Authority to territorially cover the entirety of the West Bank (or rather, the equivalent of such with land swaps) and full independence to control its own finances and such, but with Israel continuing to have security/military control. Essentially turning the entire West Bank into Area B.

That's not a permanent fix, but it's a pretty tolerable temporary one.

My thoughts as well. If they pull out overnight, it will likely be a Gaza situation all over again. There needs to be a gradual and multi-phased approach that takes place over a number of years, and which involves the continued presence of the Israeli militarily until security guarantees can be established. In an Ideal world, The IDF and West Bank security force would work together in some capacity to target and suppress terrorist cells.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Full Palestinian civilian independence - the expansion of the Palestinian Authority to territorially cover the entirety of the West Bank (or rather, the equivalent of such with land swaps) and full independence to control its own finances and such, but with Israel continuing to have security/military control. Essentially turning the entire West Bank into Area B.

That's not a permanent fix, but it's a pretty tolerable temporary one.

Palestinians have rejected this deal several times. Not because they don't want peace but they aren't willing to give up Jerusalem, any right of return, and worry they will never be a real state if Israel has open ended control over security. Sure it's easy for us to say they would be living a comfortable life now 20 years after agreeing to this but you know they might be taking suicide bombings from their own people for having collaborated with a civil war as destructive as in Lebanon. I think the last point is why both Arafat and Abbas turned down similar deals. Not sure where that leaves us. It's not clear these problems go away if Isreal gives them the maximalist reasonable deal. (They are obviously not letting everyone who fled's descendants back in Israel nor are they going to hand over security to Palestinians on a set schedule ignoring the security situation.)