LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Without re-hashing the debate about whether the Lansdowne land was given away or not, it is worth noting that financial contribution for an NHL arena would be much higher than the City's contribution to Lansdowne.

As for the comments about Kanata restaurants, I would take that as politicking and nothing more. There is no way that the City bases this decision on the fate of a few parking lot chain restaurants. Hell, you could probably take an allan key and dismantle them, then re-assemble them on the Flats if you wanted to.

I do agree with you though. The Sens are by far the most important sports organization in this town from an economic and development standpoint, and the City seems unwilling to do anything that looks like they are getting too cozy with them.

I was never totally opposed to Lansdowne, but it was a bit sketchy. And although the RB can sustain the lack of parking thanks to the shuttles (though as far as I can tell, it's to the brink; whenever we start adding temporary seating for Women's FIFA WC or the NHL Classic, the system may fail), the 67's are hurting, and not just because they suck.

Anyway, this isn't about Lansdowne. Sorry I brought it up. I get that the financial burden to the City could be much bigger if they support the NHL team, but this should not be an all or nothing situation. We can do something to help them out: rezone the CTC parking for high density for a better return when they sell, invest in bigger, better, climate controlled stations near the arena, facilitate the re-zoning of LeBreton Flats, maybe even offer a few million to give them a boost.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Or better yet, Edmonton. Google "Edmonton Arena District" and you'll get blown away.

Dang! I'm impressed. Arena, retail, hotel, residential, office... Now that's mixed use!

[Horus]

Originally Posted by phil235

No kidding. I was sticking with arenas that are already built as examples, but that [Edmonton] is a great one. Detroit looks to be much the same.

They are getting better and better at integrating these facilities into the community.

Those are good examples. I would hope that an NHL arena at LeBreton could end up to be something like that. It would be fantastic if it could integrate with the Windmill-Chaudière plan and spur some improved development out to Bronson and Preston and create a true destination in the west end of downtown.

My fear is that the NCC will "NCC" and place so many restrictions and conditions on the site that it will become untenable for such a broader integration into the rest of the city. Having the arena there could do wonders for the west end of downtown and create a true focal point in that area.

My biggest fear with this is that LeBreton with an NHL arena remains just a barren wasteland with only an NHL arena on it. That is effectively transplanting so many things that are negative at the current Kanata location to another part of town.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by phil235

I really don't get these predictions of traffic disasters. They seem to be completely divorced from the evidence. Don't we have a great example of 24,000 people "loading/unloading" a stadium in our very city at Lansdowne? There are no traffic disasters there, and that is without LRT. Yes, there will be congestion right before and after the games, but so what? It's not like we don't have congestion up and down the Queensway now around event times, including downtown. How is that any better?

For examples of how arenas can fit into urban neighbourhoods and animate the area, check out Washington, Tampa, Vancouver, Toronto. Remember that an urban arena will look very different from the CTC. These buildings aren't empty most of the time either. And they create business conditions that allow for more restaurants, pubs etc. in the vicinity. Having an arena and an "active community" (whatever that is exactly) are not mutually exclusive.

[lrt's friend]

Somewhere I read that they are talking about 500 parking spaces. Of course, this is very preliminary. However, if parking is very limited, are we expecting a transit modal share of 75%? I expect this is even higher than what is being achieved at Lansdowne. We have to make sure that not only can our transit system handle it but also that it be sufficiently attractive to the fan base that they will want to use it. This is the crux of my concern. We have very high expectations and this will require that our transit plan will work.

Regarding people's willingness to arrive early and stay late will depend on the overall design of the area. At the present time, Lebreton Flats is not much different from CTC. It is a barren desolate location. How this will change in the future, we will see. However, we cannot guarantee that the area will become a flourishing bar and restaurant district.

In other words, plunking an arena on Lebreton Flats is not a slam dunk. We need a top notch transit plan and a community plan that will make the area attractive.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect many people to walk 2 or 3 km on blustery nights in January or February.

Also, because hockey is a winter sport, the LRT station should be integrated into the arena. The thought of a 'Sens Mile' is great but making people walk outside to transit is fine in May but not so great in January.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I was never totally opposed to Lansdowne, but it was a bit sketchy. And although the RB can sustain the lack of parking thanks to the shuttles (though as far as I can tell, it's to the brink; whenever we start adding temporary seating for Women's FIFA WC or the NHL Classic, the system may fail), the 67's are hurting, and not just because they suck.

Anyway, this isn't about Lansdowne. Sorry I brought it up. I get that the financial burden to the City could be much bigger if they support the NHL team, but this should not be an all or nothing situation. We can do something to help them out: rezone the CTC parking for high density for a better return when they sell, invest in bigger, better, climate controlled stations near the arena, facilitate the re-zoning of LeBreton Flats, maybe even offer a few million to give them a boost.

Yeah, I think that's where the City's contribution will lie - in kind contributions, long term tax relief, etc. But the magnitude of the contribution isn't likely to get anywhere near the Edmonton numbers, so they will need to find some other source of funding.

The Lansdowne shuttles aren't near the brink. They actually over-supplied to ensure transportation was easy. That will be re-evaluated over the winter - I wouldn't be surprised to see the numbers reduced next year. But there is little doubt that a similar system, even using similar lots would be more than sufficient for Lebreton.

The 67s attendance decline isn't primarily about transportation. The team has been bad for an extended period, they lost most of their season tickets moving to Kanata, prices are much higher. Only now are they getting some attention to bring things back up, and they are already way up over their Kanata numbers. I expect steady growth all season, especially if the team keeps playing decent hockey.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Regarding people's willingness to arrive early and stay late will depend on the overall design of the area. At the present time, Lebreton Flats is not much different from CTC. It is a barren desolate location. How this will change in the future, we will see. However, we cannot guarantee that the area will become a flourishing bar and restaurant district.

Preston Street is already flourishing, so there is already something nearby.

As barren as Lebreton is, there is no question it will be more walkable. As it stands now, the CTC is separated from the north side of the highway by a bridge that bans pedestrians.

[rocketphish]

Q&A: 'No question' Sens could fill downtown arena, and charge more, expert says

Don Butler, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: December 12, 2014, Last Updated: December 12, 2014 8:32 AM EST

Earlier this year, a University of Ottawa study estimated the direct economic impact of the Ottawa Senators on Ottawa-Gatineau at $100 million annually. The Citizen’s Don Butler spoke to the study’s lead researcher, Norm O’Reilly, an adjunct professor at the U of O who now teaches at Ohio University, to get his take on the team’s possible move to a new downtown arena on LeBreton Flats.

Q: Would a move to LeBreton Flats be profitable for the Senators?

A: From a pure business perspective, it makes a lot of sense. I’ve studied the profitability and off-ice success of these teams for a long time, and one of the factors that comes up in most of our studies as an influencer on profitability is the arena location. And urban locations are much more profitable than rural ones.

Q: Could the Senators charge more and still fill the arena if they were downtown?

A: Yeah, no question. Simply by moving those 25 kilometres to downtown will increase the demand significantly for tickets. If they follow the trends that other clubs are doing, there’d actually be fewer regular seats and more loges and suites and special kinds of seating. They could increase the ticket prices significantly and still have the demand to do that.

Q: Should the Senators expect government financial support for a new arena?

A: The appetite for government support is pretty low among the citizens of Canada. The way governments have been going has been to move away from any kind of direct support and do things like tax breaks or surtaxes or contributions of land for free, so that we as taxpayers don’t view it as a grant, though it still is of financial benefit to the club.

Q: Would the federal government offer land for the arena at no charge?

A: I’m sure that’s part of the discussion.

Q: What would happen to the current arena, Canadian Tire Place, which only opened in 1996?

A: If you look at other situations around North America … usually they eventually get torn down. The operating costs to run these things are enormous. When arenas start to get into that 30- to 40-year range, usually a massive renovation happens or they get torn down anyway. The lifespan of that facility is hitting its late maturity. It’s going to need a facelift. That’s probably one of the reasons the owners are looking at moving.

Q: The new arena being built in Edmonton will cost $480 million. Would an arena on LeBreton Flats cost something similar?

A: This location’s got so many upsides that I don’t think they necessarily need a bells-and-whistle kind of arena. You can pour out of the arena and walk to the market or Elgin Street, and transit’s everywhere. So they could probably go a little lower if they wanted to.

Q: Would a downtown arena increase the economic impact of the Senators beyond the $100 million a year you calculated in your study?

A: There’s no question that number goes up. The whole value proposition goes way up. I don’t know what the increment would be, but I can tell you 100 per cent there would be an increased interest in tourists coming because of the Sens with a new location. Some business owners (in Kanata) would be hurt. But there would be an enormous increment for those that are downtown.

[email protected]
twitter.com/ButlerDon

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...-a-with-expert

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

A: This location’s got so many upsides that I don’t think they necessarily need a bells-and-whistle kind of arena. You can pour out of the arena and walk to the market or Elgin Street, and transit’s everywhere. So they could probably go a little lower if they wanted to.

[/url]

Does this guy know Ottawa that well? The market and Elgin are a pretty good hike from the west side of Lebreton Flats.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Does this guy know Ottawa that well? The market and Elgin are a pretty good hike from the west side of Lebreton Flats.

Only 2 and 3 LRT stops.

From TD Place you can find a good number of people waking into centretown.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Only 2 and 3 LRT stops.

From TD Place you can find a good number of people waking into centretown.

True, much better than Kanata but that still means everybody is on transit at the same time, whether 2 or 10 stops.

And the weather is much nicer during football season than hockey season so not so many will walk when it is -20 versus +20.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

True, much better than Kanata but that still means everybody is on transit at the same time, whether 2 or 10 stops.

And the weather is much nicer during football season than hockey season so not so many will walk when it is -20 versus +20.

Have you been on the metro to Olympic Stadium or the Bell Centre? Yes it's busy, but getting there is half the fun.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Somewhere I read that they are talking about 500 parking spaces. Of course, this is very preliminary. However, if parking is very limited, are we expecting a transit modal share of 75%? I expect this is even higher than what is being achieved at Lansdowne. We have to make sure that not only can our transit system handle it but also that it be sufficiently attractive to the fan base that they will want to use it. This is the crux of my concern. We have very high expectations and this will require that our transit plan will work.

Regarding people's willingness to arrive early and stay late will depend on the overall design of the area. At the present time, Lebreton Flats is not much different from CTC. It is a barren desolate location. How this will change in the future, we will see. However, we cannot guarantee that the area will become a flourishing bar and restaurant district.

In other words, plunking an arena on Lebreton Flats is not a slam dunk. We need a top notch transit plan and a community plan that will make the area attractive.

I don't think it is reasonable to expect many people to walk 2 or 3 km on blustery nights in January or February.

Also, because hockey is a winter sport, the LRT station should be integrated into the arena. The thought of a 'Sens Mile' is great but making people walk outside to transit is fine in May but not so great in January.

If the Sens are going to develop Lebreton, they're going to have to put a bunch of bars and restaurants, etc. in the area to make the move financially viable. I do agree that if its just a barren arena, the whole project is useless.

There's a bunch of office proposals (some very giant IIRC) around Bayview station. If they get developed, it would be perfect to provide some nice juicy parking spaces for event nights. After 6pm and on weekends office parking would be very empty, so whoever owns those buildings would be foolish NOT to sell spaces there.

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

By the time the arena would be built, you'd be able to have transferless park and ride trips from Place D'Orleans, Bowesville, Leitrim, Baseline, and Greenboro, ... not to mention lots of stations have plenty of nearby street parking.

There would still be 400 series buses. As others mentioned, it will also be easier to grab a beer before the game, so others will come from work, a friends house, or walk from Little Italy or Hintonburg. Plenty of people will park far away from the site and walk, reducing traffic near the arena.

There's no park n ride planned for Baseline Stn as per the recent Transportation Master Plan, so nothing for the West end

[1overcosc]

There already is one there. You have to buy a permit to be allowed to park there before 11AM on weekdays, but otherwise it's free like any other park and ride.

[silvergate]

The NCC could build a cute little park on top of the rink and pretend like there isn't a building under it.

[Urbanarchit]

I don't know, this article here seems to suggest that sports stadiums aren't exactly good for cities/ contribute as positively as we assume.

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There already is one there. You have to buy a permit to be allowed to park there before 11AM on weekdays, but otherwise it's free like any other park and ride.

At the TMP Open House around a year ago now, the city said the current park n ride at Baseline is to be removed. I can't open a lot of pdfs on my phone here, but my memory says map 3 at thus link has no park n ride at Baseline: http://documents.ottawa.ca/en/node/5836

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by defishel

I don't know, this article here seems to suggest that sports stadiums aren't exactly good for cities/ contribute as positively as we assume.

The basic idea is that sports stadiums typically aren't a good tool for economic development," said Victor Matheson, an economist at Holy Cross

This struck me as a bit of an obvious statement. But the article goes on to talk about these Peterborough-sized cities which peg their future and their meagre tax revenues hoping that a stadium and an NHL team will revive their entire town. This is far, far from being the case in Ottawa.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

Have you been on the metro to Olympic Stadium or the Bell Centre? Yes it's busy, but getting there is half the fun.

No, I haven't but I have been on the buses to the Red Blacks games. I don't mind the hustle and bustle in the least. I agree it creates a party atmosphere. I just want to make sure it works. Nothing more.