Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I believe this deal includes adding chargers to the Canadian Tire gas stations at the 401 ON Route rest stops.

They specifically said Canadian Tire Stores in the press release, but if it does include them, that would be a good thing.

I am still surprised grocery stores aren't getting in on this. They probably will soon enough.

A few are. For example, the Norwood Foodland (on Hwy 7) has both a Standard (AC Level 2) and DC Fast Charging station. Also the Metro in Renfrew has a Standard charging station.

Once again, a grocery store isn't the first place I would stop on a road trip. On a typical day, you only need to charge overnight. It is really only on road trips or on very abnormal days that you need to use a public charger. Many only use them because they can, especially if they are free.

The top priority for charging stations are (in general order of priority):

1. Where people live (houses, apartments and condos),
2. Hotels,
3. Rest stops,
4. Restaurants and coffee shops on or near highways,
5. Long term parking lots (airports, train stations, etc),
6. Tourist destinations,
7. Workplace parking (public, private or park & ride).

Edit: I would like to add that, in general, I feel that charging should not be free to prevent people from using it just because its free and leave it available for those who need it. Similarly, I don't think they should be the best parking spots, to not encourage people from parking there when they don't need to charge.

[OTownandDown]

So the City has started to use Chargepoint out in the burbs.

I wrote to McKenney to ask her about making it a priority to have Chargepoint at all city owned parking lots. I regularly park on Nepean in their parking garage and it irks me that there are no charging options. The chargers in the Glebe, while overdesigned with their breakdownable auto-retractors, are great to use otherwise.

She basically replied with 'yes, but it's not really a priority'..

Edit: I see no reason that these can't be cost neutral to the City.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interesting. PlugShare still says it was planned to be fixed by December 2. Since you have first hand knowledge, maybe you should post an update.



Agreed. The city should contract someone (Flo, Chargepoint, etc) to put standard (AC Level 2) charging stations in all of their parking lots and have a standard pricing policy.

They also need to standardize (and enforce) parking restrictions at charging stations to ensure EVs don't get ICEed (or even blocked by EVs not charging).

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Once again, a grocery store isn't the first place I would stop on a road trip.

I'll speak up for those of us living in rental accommodation.

My situation is different. I can't have a charger at home as I live in an elderly rental apartment without the power supply to support a fast charger, lack of owner support for the idea and running a regular 110v outlet to my spot is also not possible - I've asked.*

EV evangelists claim that I could simply charge up once a week or so at IKEA so I should still buy an EV!

My average weekly mileage is low enough this isn't a completely ridiculous idea except for the location for me to charge at. I don't want to spend a few hours weekly at IKEA.

Put a charger at a shopping centre with a grocery store or even better, at St. Laurent since we go to movies at least 2x per month there, and suddenly only relying on publicly charging doesn't sound as ridiculous.

I only have one vehicle and my son lives 200+km round trip away. If I was needed in an emergency (which has already happened once since he moved from the city), I need to be able to hop in the car and go. Without access to even a 110v to keep my car topped up, I'm not comfortable with an EV vehicle at this point but am following the changing landscape in case enough changes that I can consider an EV.

I am working on getting CommuAuto located here which might solve that concern.

*Since I drive my car so seldom, the long charging times on 110v are not a problem for me. My car leaves the parking lot less than 3 times a week on average. So trickle charge works for me.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

So the City has started to use Chargepoint out in the burbs.

Where did you hear that? The Mlacak Arena and Public Library does use ChargePoint, however:
The Terry Fox and Fallowfield P&Rs use Electric Circuit. Even stranger, the Goulbourn Recreation Complex has 2 home chargers (not sure the brand) and 4 120V outlets and you first have to pay at the front desk before they will turn them on.

I wrote to McKenney to ask her about making it a priority to have Chargepoint at all city owned parking lots. I regularly park on Nepean in their parking garage and it irks me that there are no charging options. The chargers in the Glebe, while overdesigned with their breakdownable auto-retractors, are great to use otherwise.

She basically replied with 'yes, but it's not really a priority'..

Funny. I wrote to Glen Gower yesterday asking that they develop a standard policy for charging stations at city parking lots. I haven't heard back from him yet, but I will post when I do.

Edit: I see no reason that these can't be cost neutral to the City.

I'm not sure, but I think the city needs to pay for the installation costs. CharagePoint (or other provider) will then bill the user the amount the owner specifies. They then charge the user the amount the owner specifies which could be priced to cover their operating costs or try and recover their installation costs. Either way, I believe they have to pay for the station up front.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

I'll speak up for those of us living in rental accommodation.

My situation is different. I can't have a charger at home as I live in an elderly rental apartment without the power supply to support a fast charger, lack of owner support for the idea and running a regular 110v outlet to my spot is also not possible - I've asked.*

EV evangelists claim that I could simply charge up once a week or so at IKEA so I should still buy an EV!

My average weekly mileage is low enough this isn't a completely ridiculous idea except for the location for me to charge at. I don't want to spend a few hours weekly at IKEA.

Put a charger at a shopping centre with a grocery store or even better, at St. Laurent since we go to movies at least 2x per month there, and suddenly only relying on publicly charging doesn't sound as ridiculous.

I only have one vehicle and my son lives 200+km round trip away. If I was needed in an emergency (which has already happened once since he moved from the city), I need to be able to hop in the car and go. Without access to even a 110v to keep my car topped up, I'm not comfortable with an EV vehicle at this point but am following the changing landscape in case enough changes that I can consider an EV.

I am working on getting CommuAuto located here which might solve that concern.

*Since I drive my car so seldom, the long charging times on 110v are not a problem for me. My car leaves the parking lot less than 3 times a week on average. So trickle charge works for me.

Thank you for your perspective. I didn't mean to say that we shouldn't have charging stations at grocery stores. I just don't see it as a top priority. The questions are:

1. Would enough people use a DC Fast Charging station to justify its installation (very expensive to both buy and install but fast)?
2. Would an AC Standard charge station charge fast enough for the amount of time spent at the destination (much more affordable but much slower)?

Shopping malls and movie theatres do make sense, as people do spend a decent amount of time there. If you are spending 2+ hours a a location, you can get a decent amount of charge in that time with an AC Standard charging station.

IMHO, we really need to find a way to allow anyone to charge at home though a combination of regulations and funding (California has legislation that requires landlords let tenants install a charging station). Charging overnight (which would typically be done at home), when electricity demand is lowest, is the most economical and ecological time to charge.

This will be hardest for those who have to park on the street at night, but there are solutions for that (the transition will be difficult though).

In the meantime, I agree and we do need to find ways for people who can't charge at home to do so elsewhere conveniently, without having to make a special trip and then kill time while waiting for their vehicle to charge. The key with EVs is that you can charge while doing something else.

[OTownandDown]

I figured Chargepoint was the latest and greatest, because the Mlacak arena has the 'newest' chargers, which are chargepoint.

I think the City puts out a public RFP and the suppliers respond.

As for 'cost neutral' I mean, for the life of the installation. As a government organization, they should release an RFP indicating that the supplier will supply, install, repair, and otherwise manage the charger, with a high percentage of the charge fee going back to the supplier, and a small amount going to the City. The City can also mandate what cost will be on the consumer for the duration of the contract.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Where did you hear that? The Mlacak Arena and Public Library does use ChargePoint, however:
The Terry Fox and Fallowfield P&Rs use Electric Circuit. Even stranger, the Goulbourn Recreation Complex has 2 home chargers (not sure the brand) and 4 120V outlets and you first have to pay at the front desk before they will turn them on.



Funny. I wrote to Glen Gower yesterday asking that they develop a standard policy for charging stations at city parking lots. I haven't heard back from him yet, but I will post when I do.



I'm not sure, but I think the city needs to pay for the installation costs. CharagePoint (or other provider) will then bill the user the amount the owner specifies. They then charge the user the amount the owner specifies which could be priced to cover their operating costs or try and recover their installation costs. Either way, I believe they have to pay for the station up front.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I figured Chargepoint was the latest and greatest, because the Mlacak arena has the 'newest' chargers, which are chargepoint.

I think the City puts out a public RFP and the suppliers respond.

I don't think that just because ChargePoint was used for the most recent installation, the city has "started to use Chargepoint out in the burbs." I suspect each installation is a new RFP and the city picks the best one each time.

I would rather see a bigger, more global installation and maintenance contract, where one (or maybe two) providers are selected to install, operate and maintain all of the cities charging stations. You should be able to get a better economy of scale that way.

As for 'cost neutral' I mean, for the life of the installation. As a government organization, they should release an RFP indicating that the supplier will supply, install, repair, and otherwise manage the charger, with a high percentage of the charge fee going back to the supplier, and a small amount going to the City. The City can also mandate what cost will be on the consumer for the duration of the contract.

I don't think EV adoption has reached the tipping point whereby charging stations are profitable enough that the they can pay for the installation costs. I suspect in most cases the company paying the bill for installation has an ulterior motive (they want to look green, they want to support their customers, they want to get in early so that when it does take off they have a foothold in the market, etc). As a result, raising the capital to do a mass deployment can be a challenge.

The companies that are building their own chargers are:

• PetroCanada has deep pockets and are using this for good PR. They also received $4.6-million from the Feds to build a coast-to-coast charging network. ref
• Electrify Canada was funded by VW as penance for Dieselgate.
• Tesla is installing charging stations to support their customers.

These are the exceptions, not the rule. Even then, they are typically only building one station per city (if that). I also don't think any of these expect to turn a profit on charging anytime soon.

Most of the other players don't have the funds (or the motive) to finance their own network, so the city would have to come up with the funds to have the stations built.

It would be interesting for Metrolinx to get skin in the game and install charging stations at Park & Rides that accept Presto Cards as their primary form of payment. They could then integrate the charging fees with the transit fare somehow.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It would be interesting for Metrolinx to get skin in the game and install charging stations at Park & Rides that accept Presto Cards as their primary form of payment. They could then integrate the charging fees with the transit fare somehow.

Regular 110v would work for this since tying up a faster charge point for the 10 hours someone is at a P&R doesn't make sense to me. It would be a helluva lot cheaper as well and serve both pure EVs and PHEVs.

[OTownandDown]

Yes, the City should just have an RFP to provide charge points at every parking lot and parking garage.

Why can't they be cost neutral? Its not like these stations are empty, on the contrary they're always busy. At $1.50/hr, say even during business hours, that's about $2,500-3,000/yr. It's probably about $10-15k for an installation, so a 5-7 year payback period. I mean, there's also upkeep so I guess that math is thrown out the window. However the cost is still extremely low compared to operating these buildings and parking garages.

Anyways the private chargers are great, and I use them all the time, Minto towers (free), constitution square ($1/hr), performance court (free), NCC (free). Now, these free ones are actually in garages that are expensive, whereas the pay-as-you go tends to be in cheaper garages... go figure.

It's really too bad that block heaters are no longer a thing. Spending a work day plugged into a block heater is more than enough juice to commute. I mean, why do we need these fancy fast charger things when most of the time our cars are parked for the day? Grocery stores and malls can do a faster charger, but office parks and park-n-rides just need some 110V points installed. Most of the block heater posts I've come across in my travels are no longer in service. Some still work but they're few.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't think that just because ChargePoint was used for the most recent installation, the city has "started to use Chargepoint out in the burbs." I suspect each installation is a new RFP and the city picks the best one each time.

I would rather see a bigger, more global installation and maintenance contract, where one (or maybe two) providers are selected to install, operate and maintain all of the cities charging stations. You should be able to get a better economy of scale that way.



I don't think EV adoption has reached the tipping point whereby charging stations are profitable enough that the they can pay for the installation costs. I suspect in most cases the company paying the bill for installation has an ulterior motive (they want to look green, they want to support their customers, they want to get in early so that when it does take off they have a foothold in the market, etc). As a result, raising the capital to do a mass deployment can be a challenge.

The companies that are building their own chargers are:

• PetroCanada has deep pockets and are using this for good PR. They also received $4.6-million from the Feds to build a coast-to-coast charging network. ref
• Electrify Canada was funded by VW as penance for Dieselgate.
• Tesla is installing charging stations to support their customers.

These are the exceptions, not the rule. Even then, they are typically only building one station per city (if that). I also don't think any of these expect to turn a profit on charging anytime soon.

Most of the other players don't have the funds (or the motive) to finance their own network, so the city would have to come up with the funds to have the stations built.

It would be interesting for Metrolinx to get skin in the game and install charging stations at Park & Rides that accept Presto Cards as their primary form of payment. They could then integrate the charging fees with the transit fare somehow.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

Regular 110v would work for this since tying up a faster charge point for the 10 hours someone is at a P&R doesn't make sense to me. It would be a helluva lot cheaper as well and serve both pure EVs and PHEVs.

I tend to agree with you, but the difference in cost between installing a trickle (120V) and a standard (240V) charging station is minimal. The only real difference in cost is on the electrical supply end, and that is related to the power output (which is voltage times current). A 12A 120V charging station draws the same amount of power as a (theoretical) 6A 240V charging station would (1.4kW). With 240V it becomes cheaper to install dual or even quad charging stations that share the power between the vehicles plugged in. For example, a 24A 240V quad charging station would give:

• all 24A (5.8 kW) to a single vehicle,
• 12A (2.9 kW) if two vehicles are plugged in,
• 8A (1.9 kW) if three vehicles are plugged in, and
• 6A (1.4 kW) if four vehicles are plugged in.

This would cost less to install than 4 trickle chargers and provide better charging flexibility based on demand.

Now DC Fast chargers are significantly more expensive and don't really belong in a P&R.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Yes, the City should just have an RFP to provide charge points at every parking lot and parking garage.

Why can't they be cost neutral? Its not like these stations are empty, on the contrary they're always busy. At $1.50/hr, say even during business hours, that's about $2,500-3,000/yr. It's probably about $10-15k for an installation, so a 5-7 year payback period. I mean, there's also upkeep so I guess that math is thrown out the window. However the cost is still extremely low compared to operating these buildings and parking garages.

The issue is the up front cost would need to be borne by the city. They may be able to recoup the costs over a decade (depending on maintenance costs), but providers don't have the capital to invest the money required for the number of stations needed, especially considering Ottawa is only one of many cities that would want these stations. From the city's perspective, even if they can recoup the costs over time, counsel is always more concerned about this year's budget than future budgets, so until it becomes politically popular, they will only put lip service to it unfortunately.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Anyways the private chargers are great, and I use them all the time, Minto towers (free), constitution square ($1/hr), performance court (free), NCC (free). Now, these free ones are actually in garages that are expensive, whereas the pay-as-you go tends to be in cheaper garages... go figure.

I rarely use them. I get enough of a charge overnight that I rarely need to recharge during the day. If they are free to use, then hey, why not, but I am a good reason as to why they shouldn't be free, as I would be taking a space that someone who does actually need to recharge might want.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

It's really too bad that block heaters are no longer a thing. Spending a work day plugged into a block heater is more than enough juice to commute. I mean, why do we need these fancy fast charger things when most of the time our cars are parked for the day? Grocery stores and malls can do a faster charger, but office parks and park-n-rides just need some 110V points installed. Most of the block heater posts I've come across in my travels are no longer in service. Some still work but they're few.

The problem with block heater posts is that block heaters are much lower power devices (between 300 & 400 W), so multiple outlets are on the same circuit. Your EV trickle charger uses 1.4 kW and thus needs its own circuit. As a result, if two people plugged in, or someone plugged something else in (like a vacuum cleaner for example) on the same circuit, the breaker would (hopefully) trip. The block heater outlets would need to be rewired to support EVs.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by roger1818

This would cost less to install than 4 trickle chargers and provide better charging flexibility based on demand.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I rarely use them. I get enough of a charge overnight that I rarely need to recharge during the day. If they are free to use, then hey, why not, but I am a good reason as to why they shouldn't be free, as I would be taking a space that someone who does actually need to recharge might want.



The problem with block heater posts is that block heaters are much lower power devices (between 300 & 400 W), so multiple outlets are on the same circuit. Your EV trickle charger uses 1.4 kW and thus needs its own circuit. As a result, if two people plugged in, or someone plugged something else in (like a vacuum cleaner for example) on the same circuit, the breaker would (hopefully) trip. The block heater outlets would need to be rewired to support EVs.

I don't usually 'need' a charge either, driving a Volt, however if I'm going to have to park downtown, I'm going to park in a garage that gives me free stuff, mainly Electricity and (bonus) a car-wash (Canderel or NAC).

As for block heaters, I have a mental list of those that are still in service, because when I see a plugs, I plugs it in.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I don't usually 'need' a charge either, driving a Volt, however if I'm going to have to park downtown, I'm going to park in a garage that gives me free stuff, mainly Electricity and (bonus) a car-wash (Canderel or NAC).

I'm curious, if it wasn't free, would you pay a reasonable fee (in addition to the cost of parking) to charge?

Also, have you ever paid for parking and discovered all of the charging stations are in use? Would you be frustrated if that happened? Imagine if you were driving a BEV and needed that charge how you would feel? That is why, unless they are committed to have more charging stations than they need, charging shouldn't be free, even if you paid for parking.

[ars]

New fine $125 for parking fossil fuel vehicle in electric car spot

Ontario drivers who park petroleum-powered vehicles in spots designated for electric cars may soon be fined $125. The same penalty will apply to drivers of electric vehicles that park at a charging station but aren't using it.

This change to the Highway Traffic Act marks the first time a private member's bill by a Green Party member has become law in Ontario. The bill was brought forward by government House Leader MPP Paul Calandra for first reading on June 4, and moved forward by Whitby Progressive Conservative MPP Lorne Coe, co-sponsored by Guelph MPP and Green leader, Mike Schreiner.

The change to the act says vehicles in designated spots must be electric and attached to the station's charging equipment, or could be ticketed.

This was a long time coming and hopefully this means the end of getting ICE'd for EV owners in Ontario.

[OTownandDown]

I've definitely done all of the above. Entering a garage and turning around to leave is free, usually. I've paid for parking AND charging, but for instance, the canderel garage is only $5 after a certain hour, and a small fee for the charger. BUT they also have free vacuums I've also swung by City Hall's free charger (25% success rate) and then swung over to Shopify to charge, for a fee.

If I were driving a BEV and were at criticality, you'd have to go to multiple garages if your preferred station wasn't available. But unless i was travelling cross country, one would assume the BEV charge still wouldn't get to a critical level on a day-to-day.

Minto and Canderel are usually open for at least one charge station. I've only struck out once or twice in about 30 charges.

I ACTUALLY use chargers not for the electricity, but to show building owners and charge station installers that they're getting good use, so that more will be installed I've got to park downtown often anyways so I might as well pick a place with a charger. And so the building owner is getting more business by having the charge station. For instance on the weekend if I happen to be at the Rideau Centre, I'll charge at the flo station, even though I've only used a couple kWh's to get there. It's also handier because a parking spot is always available at the entrance...


Bonus answer: I get bitter when I see a tesla at a charge station, thinking 'what the hell do they need a charge for?' when i've got my measly 15kw to charge up my Volt.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I'm curious, if it wasn't free, would you pay a reasonable fee (in addition to the cost of parking) to charge?

Also, have you ever paid for parking and discovered all of the charging stations are in use? Would you be frustrated if that happened? Imagine if you were driving a BEV and needed that charge how you would feel? That is why, unless they are committed to have more charging stations than they need, charging shouldn't be free, even if you paid for parking.

[ars]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Bonus answer: I get bitter when I see a tesla at a charge station, thinking 'what the hell do they need a charge for?' when i've got my measly 15kw to charge up my Volt.

To be fair to Teslas, they are 100% BEV, so in some cases they need the charging stations more than we do as Volt owners. I know some BEV owners are bitter when they see Volts using charging stations because they know that we have a gas backup whereas they need to rely 100% on their battery.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ars

To be fair to Teslas, they are 100% BEV, so in some cases they need the charging stations more than we do as Volt owners. I know some BEV owners are bitter when they see Volts using charging stations because they know that we have a gas backup whereas they need to rely 100% on their battery.

Agreed. I get what OTownandDown is saying though. One of the customers I visit has a couple parking spots for EV's to charge and often see Teslas parked there and wonder how far is their commute if they need to charge at work. I also don't know what type of charging infrastructure they have at home.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by ars

To be fair to Teslas, they are 100% BEV, so in some cases they need the charging stations more than we do as Volt owners. I know some BEV owners are bitter when they see Volts using charging stations because they know that we have a gas backup whereas they need to rely 100% on their battery.

lol, maybe I'm also bitter because they can afford a Tesla.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ars

New fine $125 for parking fossil fuel vehicle in electric car spot

[Quote Removed]

This was a long time coming and hopefully this means the end of getting ICE'd for EV owners in Ontario.

That is good start, though I wish the bill (which can be found here) also stated that the vehicle could/should be towed. The risk of a $125 fine might not be enough for someone who is in a rush, but adding the risk of being towed may push them over the edge. A fine also doesn't help free up the space from someone who is in violation.

What isn't clear in the bill is what the "prescribed requirements" are for the sign identifying the parking spot as an "electric vehicle charging station." All it says is that they may be made by the "Lieutenant Governor in Council."

The bill received Royal Ascent on Dec. 12 and the article also says this change goes into effect immediately.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

lol, maybe I'm also bitter because they can afford a Tesla.

LOL. Now the truth comes out.