Calgary Public Transit II

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Aegis

But the same argument could have been made when 7th ave was designated as an ROW. Burying the line under 8th, or building it above ground on 6th, provides the same utility to the end-user, but the above-ground option the cost is reduced. The extra cost of burying (and maintaining) and underground line would be better invested in more LRT expansion elsewhere.. that's all I'm saying.

That's if the expansion would actually be achievable considering 7th avenue is at capacity. What's the point of an expansion if we can't run the trains in the downtown? The 8th Avenue subway is not some kind of "oh wouldn't it be nice if people could wait inside for the train" or "oh I hate the noise of the train, let's move it underground" kind of thing. The 8th avenue subway is necessary because without it, we cannot add any more expansion elsewhere. Where will the extra trains go?

[shogged]

Originally Posted by Aegis

But the same argument could have been made when 7th ave was designated as an ROW. Burying the line under 8th, or building it above ground on 6th, provides the same utility to the end-user, but the above-ground option the cost is reduced. The extra cost of burying (and maintaining) and underground line would be better invested in more LRT expansion elsewhere.. that's all I'm saying.

technically speaking an underground line would have more capacity than a line like 7th ave. 7th ave trains have to share the road with traffic, and while cars don't run on 7th ave itself, they do still have to cross it.

subway line through downtown doesn't have to wait for traffic lights, and could have a higher rate of speed because there aren't the same kind of hazards like 7th ave (peds, running red lights etc)

so not the same utility to the user! and therefore its going to be needed eventually because 7th ave is going to reach a capacity to the point where the system no longer operates at its peak efficiency, therefore losing utility. The cost of burying a line eventually evens out imo.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[DizzyEdge]

Does anyone have the knowledge to come up with even a ball park figure of the cost of say 6th ave surface vs 8th ave tunnel? Just curious what the savings vs annoyance of 6th ave might be.

[Surrealplaces]

A couple of shot of LRT Platforms

[MalcolmTucker]

Running both existing lines above ground but on separate streets requires a fair bit of infrastructure to be built, namely the Bow Trail connector to free up 6th St.

You would run the lines connected like this to prevent any train vs train crossings: NW-NE and W - S with the W-S running on 7th and the NW-NE running on 6th.

I would bet all the road improvements you need to only double capacity would be in the range of $200-$250 million, plus line construction/ reconstruction in the $120 million dollar range (tracks and stations). This is assuming that the 6th Ave road bridge over the Encana parkade being strong enough for LRT.

6th has lots of parkade access off of it aswell that would have to be relocated.

Considering that without land and relocation requirements the project would be in the range of the 8th ave subway, with only doubling capacity the subway seems the better choice. (and it helps protect the river front from the Bow Trail connector.)

So I guess the answer to your question is: how do you scope the project? If you don't care about replacing road capacity it is much cheaper, if you do it is only a tad cheaper.

Eventually you would need to build the subway anyways and in the mean time you need to buy more LRVs, possibly two since the setup unbalanced the system by connecting less busy branches with high demand branches.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Building white elephants isn't the only alternative to playing catch up. As mentioned earlier, WestLRT was on the board in the 1990s in basically the same alignment that is being built today. So were many of the extensions to existing lines that didn't end up being done until the 2000s (Dalhousie, Crowfoot, Fish Creek, Somerset). None of these would have turned out to be white elephants had they been built as originally planned in the '90s

Yes, but, we didn't necessarily know that in 1991. Plus, there was NO MONEY BACK THEN.

My only point was that cities have constraints on them that prevent "the right projects" from a 2010 perspective from moving ahead 20 years before.

[Surrealplaces]

Any idea when the subway study is going to be completed?

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Seems we already went over this a few months ago. No need to rehash those points again. We'll just have to wait for the subway study to finish.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Fair enough. I am aware there was no money from any level of government.

Yes, we do have the benefit of hindsight, but I think there's something to be said for the fact that every project that was on the board in the 1990s (and would have been built had there been money) was exactly everything that is being built today. There's no "man, glad we didn't build that," going on here, which was basically what you're saying Montreal would have liked to have been saying about Mirabel when you gave that example. At least that's how I interpreted your post. About the '90s, hindsight has proven that the planning of the era was pretty sound, whereas financing those plans was not. You say that we have the benefit of hindsight now, but the hindsight now matches the foresight of 20 years ago.

The only thing that comes to mind that I'm glad never got built was a notion that never really got fully planned-out in the late '90s and early 2000s. That is the spur line off the South LRT that would have gone east down 22X and either delayed or replaced the SELRT.

Good points. We have been fortunate that our infrastructure planning, while extremely slow, has been fairly well thought-out. We don't have the white elephants that some other cities have.

[srperrycgy]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Good points. We have been fortunate that our infrastructure planning, while extremely slow, has been fairly well thought-out. We don't have the white elephants that some other cities have.

I don't think the infrastructure planning process itself was slow, but the building process was.

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[mersar]

Was mentioned on cptdb that former LRT cars 2019 and 2027 have been cut in half and the undamaged side of each bolted together, and were out this afternoon doing testing. With a new number of "2090" on the body.

[srperrycgy]

Originally Posted by mersar

Was mentioned on cptdb that former LRT cars 2019 and 2027 have been cut in half and the undamaged side of each bolted together, and were out this afternoon doing testing. With a new number of "2090" on the body.

2090 was out this morning as well. I was waiting at 3rd St W, and there it was. I grabbed a pic w/ my phone, but didn't turn out.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Link

Is Epic Beard Man available?

[frinkprof]

Nevermind.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Is Epic Beard Man available?

He had to take an Amber Lamps.

[Surrealplaces]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but does anyone know the ridership stats of Calgary's LRT system? Wikipedia, says it's 266,000 daily, but looking around the web i see varying numbers. I can't seem to find recent numbers, even on CT's website.

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

This is the response I got via e-mail in late December from a transit representative after I inquired about it:

Thanks Frink!

I do see the advantages of having the South/NW line buried under eighth, especially for moving trains through the core quicker and increasing capacity. One thing I've noticed recently is that the 7th ave is really quite busy with people and pedestrian traffic due to the LRT. There's alot of potential to leverage that traffic and build a nice retail corridor. It's already getting better with the new station at TD square having retail access right off the platform, and the new proposed Century Park tower having retail fronting the LRT platform.