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  #241  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 9:49 PM
CBeats CBeats is offline
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There's already a thread for this - Transit Fantasies, I believe.
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  #242  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 10:07 PM
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^ we do...it's here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=146531

Oh well, I guess we can have a new one
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  #243  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 10:44 PM
nname nname is offline
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Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
If we look at the interchange designs for Eagleridge and the interchange just before that we will find out that apparently the government decided that there was going to be little traffic heading to the ferries from Whistler, as there is no dedicated ramp from highway 99 to highway 1/101. (Rather one must do a U-turn at exit 4 or so?)
To go to the Ferries from the north, you take the Pasco Road/Old Hwy 99 exit (the exit 4km north of Exit 2... I guess we can call that... exit -2?). This is how the 259/C12 go to/from Lions Bay right now.
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  #244  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 10:53 PM
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I'm no longer worried about any new lines, beside the Evergreen Line. I'm more concerned about Translink not cutting 40% of transit services. Let's think about it for a second, I highly doubt they'll cut rush hour services too much, but be prepared to see major cuts or elimination of non rush hour services. I hope Translink at least finds the funding to maintain service levels.
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  #245  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2009, 11:10 PM
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Translink requires $260 million annually to maintain current service levels & minor fleet expansion. That should not have too much problem getting that.

The 45 mill anually may well be a totally different story.
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  #246  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2009, 5:23 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
To go to the Ferries from the north, you take the Pasco Road/Old Hwy 99 exit (the exit 4km north of Exit 2... I guess we can call that... exit -2?). This is how the 259/C12 go to/from Lions Bay right now.
This is for the passenger terminal though. For the vehicles, they have to use exit 4 i think.

I've been ever so slowly editing my Google Maps, if anybody is interested.

- Allan Kuan
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  #247  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 5:16 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is online now
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Question What about the Hastings Line?

I read two contradicting arguments about the necessity for a Hastings Skytrain line; one for it and one refuting the necessity of it.

In my opinion, a Hastings Line is not only useful, and "does justice" to East Hastings and East Vancouver, but has great potential as well as a transporter of commuters from the Northeast part of the Vancouver and Burnaby area, and as a more far-reaching transportation corridor which could serve intra-regional transit not necessarily bound for downtown.

I agree that the Hastings Line is a logical, eastward extension of the Expo Line corridor from Waterfront, turning sharply eastward.

Going underground along Hastings it would naturally serve stations like Main, Clark Drive, Nanaimo, Renfrew, and terminate AT THE VERY LEAST at the present-day Kootenay Loop.

In his design, Deasine had it running far eastward, boring under Burnaby Mountain. While this itself (boring under SFU) is a great and ambitious idea, it may not be the most practical solution, whereas there are others that might be.

The Hastings Line, which, naturally, would come up to be at-grade past the developed and dense corridor of East Hastings itself, could terminate at Willingdon, or Curtis and Duthie by SFU, where a major bus connection would bring in SFU-bound passengers, and people in areas of North and East Burnaby.

However, on a more ambitious and perhaps functional scale, the line would skirt the south side of Burnaby mountain, where a lot of high-rise development (and accompanying population density) is planned, and link up with the Lougheed Mall Town Centre Station.

This would facilitate linking people who live in the notheastern parts of the city, with points south and east in the metro area.

It is important to remember, as several readers pointed out, that much of the traffic within the Vancouver area is regional centre - to - regional centre, and not just commuters to and from downtown.

If people complain that this will not benefit people in the Northeast quadrant, like Port Coquitlam, the line could bifurcate, one branch going southeat to Lougheed for southerly and easterly connections, and the other following the Barnet Highway route, either in the middle of the highway itself, or along the waterfront. (Hopefully, the Westcoast Express will become more frequent, but that's another issue) The line could connect at the Coquitlam Centre, with both the WestCoast Express and Evergreen Line for service to Douglas College and connecting busses up the slope of Burke Mountain.

At stations like Nanaimo, Kootenay Loop (perhaps to be renamed) and Willingdon, local busses serving east Vancouver and North Burnaby - neighbourhoods like Burnaby Heights and Capitol Hill - could connect, with smaller, more frequent mini-busses, instead of the usual busses, often running with a handful of passengers, (or no passengers at all), at hourly intervals rendering them inconvenient, at a great waste of fuel and material cost.

At a station like Curtis and Duthie, it seems only logical to have frequent commuter busses serving SFU, without having to bore under Burnaby Mountain, which is an impressive idea, but hugely expensive and gargantuan in scope.

Continuing southeast along the flank of Burnaby Mountain, the line would serve a large catch-basin of commuters either going downtown and points west, or to places Like Lougheed Town Centre, New Westminster and Surrey, which are predicted to grow faster than the city of Vancouver itself over the next 20 years, rendering them "mini-cities" with a necesssity of a "ring-connector" route linking them. Again, the extension of the Hastings Line from Downtown fits this need well.

As to exactly where the line should terminate is debatable, but the Hastings Line is NOT jsut a "cute" addition to what has already been proposed. It is a potentially vital and versatile link that merits further study and discussion.
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  #248  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 5:27 AM
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Even if a Hastings SkyTrain is a real option, it's decades away - we've got bigger plans. A real viable business case to build SkyTrain along Hastings is a long ways away.

However, perhaps it's SkyTrain but it shouldn't be an extension of the Expo Line. The longer the line is, the reliability also goes down. And it's also not necessary to have trains going from Hastings Park to Waterfront and then to Surrey, very few would make that kind of detour commute. Simply have it stop at Waterfront, with a track switch to the Expo Line for maintenance and train integration purposes.

Just think, with the 6-km Surrey extension the Expo Line will be 35-kms long. Add in a Hastings extension as part of this line and it'll be 55-kms? 60-kms?? 65k-kms??? Depends on where you want the terminus to be. If a train breaks down along the line or if there's a power failure or an accident, the entire Expo Line is affected. An incident in Burnaby would affect trains running on the new Hastings section. Currently, if something goes wrong along the Expo Line the service on the Millennium Line won't be affected as trains turn around at Columbia instead of continuing onto the Expo Line track.
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  #249  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 6:47 AM
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Lots of metro system has long lines...
Taipei Airport Line will be 51km
Oedo Line in Tokyo is 41km
Hong Kong East Rail is 43km
London Underground Central, Piccadilly, Metropolitan, District lines are 74, 71, 67, 64km respectively
Chicago Blue Line is 43km
Beijing Line 13 is 41km, and Line 10 will be 58km when completed
Shanghai Metro Line 9 will be 51km when completed later this year
Dalian Line 4 is 49km
Dubai Metro Red line opening later this year will be 50km, and its automated too
Blue Line in Portland Max Light Rail is 53km
Singapore East-West line is 50km

In fact, most of the large metro system I checked have a few lines over 40 or even 50km... 35km as the longest line is probably considered to be "short" by international standard...
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  #250  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 6:59 AM
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^ i believe most of those lines are just long routes. One exception is Tokyo's Oedo as it's a ring line.

My point is, there's no point in having the Hastings SkyTrain as a continuous part of the Expo Line. It's a complete detour. If it weren't a detour route, for example as in the Expo Line taking a sharp swing north after Waterfront towards the North Shore, then sure by all means having it as an extension of the Expo Line. It makes sense. For Hastings, it's pointless and there's no benefit of having it as a continous extension - rather it only serves to hinder the reliability of the system.
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  #251  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
^ i believe most of those lines are just long routes. One exception is Tokyo's Oedo as it's a ring line.
Actually, many of those long lines are similar to this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...system_map.svg

From the map above, Red, Blue, and Orange lines are over 50km, while I don't have the info for the other lines. Having loop like those will actually make the system easier to transfer between lines as it create more transfer points.

Well, if you think connect expo and Hastings line looks weird enough, take a look at this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Metro_map.svg

Does this look like Millennium line connected with Hastings line?
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  #252  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 7:33 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Yes... eww...
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  #253  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 7:43 AM
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There's another one - a heart shape:
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/dhg/den-haag.htm

In fact, there are only 3 systems in the world that have a line going over the same station twice: That New Castle yellow line, this Den Haag line 3, and Vancouver Millennium Line (although we use 2 different names for the stations)
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  #254  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 7:50 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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I agree with Mr X. The line shouldn't be combined... it should function separately. You can have out-of-service tracks that connect the lines at Waterfront but they shouldn't allow in-service trains to go from one place to the next.
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  #255  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 8:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nname View Post
Actually, many of those long lines are similar to this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...system_map.svg

From the map above, Red, Blue, and Orange lines are over 50km, while I don't have the info for the other lines. Having loop like those will actually make the system easier to transfer between lines as it create more transfer points.
That doesn't even make sense. Those are pointless transfers when the route is one big detour. If anything, it hinders the reliability of the line.
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  #256  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 8:27 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is online now
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Exclamation Hastings Line Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
I agree with Mr X. The line shouldn't be combined... it should function separately. You can have out-of-service tracks that connect the lines at Waterfront but they shouldn't allow in-service trains to go from one place to the next.
Thank you for that clarification, Allan.

The point is not whether the Hastings Line is a contiguous part of the Expo Line or not. Having it terminate at Waterfront is fine. The essential point is that, despite objections by many readers, the Hastings line is not a minor addendum to the system, but could be a large and important element of it.

If it connects at Lougheed, and / or goes Northeast, it would service a large catchment area, and lend itself to many useful bus and train connections, plus having a potentially high ridership and being, in addition to an in-and-out of central city route, a connector that would save a lot of zig-zagging.

Deasine produced a terrific plan some time back, and his plan included a Hastings Line, the main difference being that it went straight UNDER Burnaby Mountain.
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  #257  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 8:29 AM
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I support an eventual skytrain line that goes west to east linking the Stanely Park to DTES (maybe PNE ?). It will cross path with our existing skytrain line at the Vancouver City Centre/Granville station.
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  #258  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 8:41 AM
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The benefit of extending the Expo Line is that it decreases turn around time at Waterfront. If the trains traveled through the station instead of turning around at the station, you could achieve better, more efficient throughput. Currently, there is typically a lot of linger time for trains at Waterfront, which sometimes causes them to back up around Granville and Burrard. If the trains were to carry on then that time would not be needed.

As well, there are probably a lot of people who ride Expo Line that would love to ride it the extra station into Gastown. And there would be many riders from Hastings that would like to continue on to Burrard or Granville. Making them switch trains seems like a hassle that is not required if Skytrain technology is used.

Millennium line trains don't turn around at Columbia (usually). But they can turn around at Columbia. A Hastings Extension could be similar. If there are problems along the Expo Line, the trains from Hastings could be turned around at Waterfront, just like what happens at Columbia if there are problems on the Expo Line.

Hastings street is going through quite some growth. All along the street, especially in Burnaby between Boundary and Willingdon, there is a lot of new development. For good or bad, the east side is being gentrified, and buses in the area are becoming more and more busy. Skytrain could be used to spur proper urban growth with TODs right in the heart of the city instead of in the suburbs. The best way to beat urban sprawl is to replace wasted space right in the city with high density.

The corridor (along with Powell) is used by a lot of different bus routes to move East-West to get to their primary North-South route. The Hastings Skytrain would eliminate a lot of buses so that they could run locally with more frequency and connect with Skytrain to take people downtown quickly. Just look at what that would do for the number 20.

At Willingdon, I would have the line turn south and follow Willingdon past Millennium line, past that commercial area, past the Casino and BCIT, and terminate at Metrotown. It would be an amazing North-South Connection through the heart of Burnaby. And it would offer a back door into downtown that people from Metrotown could use if they want to avoid a crowded Expo Line.
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  #259  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 8:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x View Post
Those are pointless transfers when the route is one big detour.
That's the idea.. People will transfer before coming into the detour, so they transfer at different station when they're coming from different ends of the line. Now, instead of one super busy transfer station, there are now 2 less busy stations. This will also save a transfer in both directions if, say, a new line that is constructed and connected to one of the station in the detour.

What about this, if the train stop at Waterfront even though it is technically the same line, what about the people who want to go from Hastings to CBD at Burrard? Or what about the people come from Expo Line and want to go to Gastown? Most systems in the world run trains straight through Downtown instead of terminating them (unless its at the end of line), I guess this is one of the reason. Also, having a train revert in an interlining section would probably limit the headway too...

This is what I come up with for the downtown area in my fantasy map (that was never posted):


The Expo Line extends west from Burrard to West End and West Vancouver, Canada Line extend north from Waterfront to North Vancouver, while Millennium Line connect to Hastings Line and extend East to Willingdon. Now, passengers from Metrotown to North Van/Richmond would change train at Granville; passengers from Hastings would change train at Waterfront; passengers from Metrotown to West Van either stay on the train or change at Burrard, as does passenger from Hastings. This will create 3 less busy transfer stations (instead of one super busy station at Waterfront), while there's a maximum of 1 transfer from passengers going in any directions.

Last edited by nname; Aug 7, 2009 at 9:01 AM.
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  #260  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2009, 8:57 AM
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Originally Posted by NetMapel View Post
I support an eventual skytrain line that goes west to east linking the Stanely Park to DTES (maybe PNE ?). It will cross path with our existing skytrain line at the Vancouver City Centre/Granville station.
As great as Stanley Park is, it's not really a rapid transit destination. I think a more useful route would be to head east from Waterfront or Vancouver City Center and into the West End, then turn Southeast and under English Bay and into Kits. A direct, super fast link from Kits into the downtown business district would attract a lot of riders. It could also connect with the UBC extension at Arbutus or MacDonald.

I think it would be neat if they could extend the Canada Line from Waterfront to do this. Imagine a one seat ride that takes you from Kits, to the West End, Coal Harbor, Waterfront/Gastown, Robson Street and to Yaletown. It would be the yuppie line. But I don't' think they left themselves room to expand the Canada Line. Does anyone know if the Canada Line is destined to be just a one shot wonder in Downtown?
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