Burnaby Updates

[logan5]

This might be considered skyscraper fantasy by some, but the numbers are there, so here goes...

Proposals have started to be come in under Burnaby's new rezoning rules which adds a substantial amount of residential density in the form of rental units. A proposal submitted for a Telford and Beresford site maxes out its density, so it's safe to assume that other developments will follow suit.

So let's calculate what's possible on the highest density sites - the RMS5s/C3 zone. I'll use the Old Orchard Mall site as a hypothetical development.

If you calculate the total square footage at the Old Orchard Mall site at Willingdon and Kingsway at maximum FSR (12 x 220 000 sq foot site), you get 2 640 000 sq feet of total floor space. Of that, 1 980 000 would be residential. Assuming a typical floor plate size for a multi tower development like this, at 7500 sq feet, you have a total floor count of 264 floors. Obviously you are not going to have a 264 floor tower, but more likely 4 towers, so 264/4 = 66 floors for each of the 4 towers. Going by the Gilmore example, that's well over 700', but these developments like to have a signature tower that rises above the rest, so at least one of the towers would be above 800', but there's more to consider because there is also 660 000 sq feet of commercial space as part of this development. This will significantly increase the size of the podium, adding even more height to the residential towers.

Taking all these factors into account, it's fair to predict that we will be seeing towers pushing 900' and beyond in Burnaby. Maybe even tallest in the country. Fantasy or reality? I say reality, and relatively soon.

[owenhujb]

Exciting stuff! Are there more examples of highest density sites?

I was also under the impression that Old Orchard was a possible site for the Metrotown Events Center

[Spr0ckets]

I guess it all depends.

Does anyone know who owns the Old Orchard mall?
(as in, is it one of the big Developers?)

Burnaby, (unlike Vancouver) doesn't seem to have an aversion to tall towers or any of the ridiculous view cone nonsense that Downtown is hampered by, so.....probably not out of the realm of reality or possibility.


I imagine the Concord Sears project could potentially kick off the drive to build really tall towers in the area and particularly around the Kingsway side of the mall.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by owenhujb

Exciting stuff! Are there more examples of highest density sites?

I was also under the impression that Old Orchard was a possible site for the Metrotown Events Center

I know there are zones in Brentwood and Lougheed that have the same density as Metrotown, but the maps are a bit vague. The Metrotown map is makes it easy to understand what can go where. The purple areas are the highest density areas where we are likely to see very tall towers. The added residential density provides even more incentive for Metrotown Mall to redevelop.



https://www.burnaby.ca/Assets/Metrot...ntown+Plan.pdf

[Vin]

Metrotown downtown is such a dumb plan. It should cover Maywood and Central Park East as well. Just leave the mall alone: it's presence is the best thing that happens there since the neighbourhood's inception. The skytrain line comes second.

[BobLoblawsLawBlog]

Originally Posted by Vin

Metrotown downtown is such a dumb plan. It should cover Maywood and Central Park East as well. Just leave the mall alone: it's presence is the best thing that happens there since the neighbourhood's inception. The skytrain line comes second.

It's more aesthetic though. I think the roads should have a rain cover the entire road made of glass to prevent rainy streets.

[logan5]

What would likely happen is the mall would be rebuilt underground. Probly not 3 stories underground, more likely 2, with street level retail. Would you be opposed to that?

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Vin

Metrotown downtown is such a dumb plan. It should cover Maywood and Central Park East as well. Just leave the mall alone: it's presence is the best thing that happens there since the neighbourhood's inception. The skytrain line comes second.

Private space with limited hours to public space with no hours.

[owenhujb]

Oh wow! Never really investigated too much into the Metrotown Plan, but if ALL that purple space gets transformed into huge developments like Station Square (if not much taller, which is basically a 100% possibility) then Metrotown's skyline is going to look insane in a few decades.

I definitely agree with the plan. I frequently go to Metrotower II and you can easily see how much space Metrotown Mall takes up, and, even though it is crucial to the area's success, with the Downtown Plan in action it can much more effectively used and have more of an urban feeling.

I am aware that this is off-topic, but for my skyscraper fantasy, just imagine if all of Burnaby's towers (all the ones in Metrotown, Brentwood, future Lougheed and future Edmonds) are built in one single core. It may not be the most effective "town center", but all of Burnaby's towers in one single skyline would be one of the, if not the, best skylines in Canada.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BobLoblawsLawBlog

It's more aesthetic though. I think the roads should have a rain cover the entire road made of glass to prevent rainy streets.

Originally Posted by logan5

What would likely happen is the mall would be rebuilt underground. Probly not 3 stories underground, more likely 2, with street level retail. Would you be opposed to that?

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Private space with limited hours to public space with no hours.

Originally Posted by owenhujb

Oh wow! Never really investigated too much into the Metrotown Plan, but if ALL that purple space gets transformed into huge developments like Station Square (if not much taller, which is basically a 100% possibility) then Metrotown's skyline is going to look insane in a few decades.

I definitely agree with the plan. I frequently go to Metrotower II and you can easily see how much space Metrotown Mall takes up, and, even though it is crucial to the area's success, with the Downtown Plan in action it can much more effectively used and have more of an urban feeling.

I can definitely see a PATH network or Old World glass-covered streets substituting for the existing mall just fine, if the owners ever want to sell.

Straight-out replacing Metrotown with mixed-use retail tower blocks (as the plan implies) however, would likely kill it as a citywide destination and gathering space; personally, I would see absolutely no difference between that particular rain-drenched streetfront and ones much closer to my home. Would there be enough residents by then to make up the difference?

Originally Posted by owenhujb

I am aware that this is off-topic, but for my skyscraper fantasy, just imagine if all of Burnaby's towers (all the ones in Metrotown, Brentwood, future Lougheed and future Edmonds) are built in one single core. It may not be the most effective "town center", but all of Burnaby's towers in one single skyline would be one of the, if not the, best skylines in Canada.

Nah, it should be fine - wouldn't be any worse than Midtown, Lower Manhattan and the giant gap in the middle. That said, there's multiple reasons why Burnaby decided to do what they did.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I can definitely see a PATH network or Old World glass-covered streets substituting for the existing mall just fine, if the owners ever want to sell.

Straight-out replacing Metrotown with mixed-use retail tower blocks (as the plan implies) however, would likely kill it as a citywide destination and gathering space; personally, I would see absolutely no difference between that particular rain-drenched streetfront and ones much closer to my home. Would there be enough residents by then to make up the difference?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Seeing as this is from the same city that tore down the Metrotown overpass because it wants to emulate the "California Experience" of walking in a mixed-use retail neighborhood with constant sunlight, I'm not surprised that they're tearing the entire mall for an uninspired "mixed use" neighborhood. That idea was bad from the start.

[Spr0ckets]

They're not tearing down the mall. Are people really still on this?
That is a plan for what the City would like to see happen - one that was formulated and conceived without the input of the most important stakeholders in any such discussion. i.e the Mall's owners.
It's a vision; a manifesto; a wishlist item, if you will.

Why would Ivanhoe Cambridge ever want to pursue such a plan and kill the goose - their goose- that lays the golden egg?
It makes not sense at all.

This plan would definitely benefit the city* and what their idea of what they feel the area should be like (though it should be pointed out that cities tend to get it wrong more often than not regarding these sorts of vision plans and outlines for future development of their towns - because nobody can ever accurately predict human behavior and growth).

It would do nothing for IC's bottomline which is all that matters here, and in fact would have the opposite effect most likely and kill a lot of their profits and value.
They're the second most visited mall in all of Canada, with the second highest foot traffic,and are in the top 10 in terms of revenue per square foot (and not much higher in the top 2 of 3 only because of the large area size of the mall).
Does anyone have any data that could possibly support the notion that them deciding to pursue this plan would not hurt their profit margin, or would even increase it?
Because outside of any such credible data, Ivanhoe Cambridge have exactly ZERO incentive to want to consider much less even look at the sheet of paper this plan is printed on.
And the city can't force them to do anything they're not inclined to do. Land and property ownership rights are still a thing in Canada.

I'm baffled that people are still discussing this like it could ever in a million years or lifetimes ever come into fruition in any way shape or form.

The time to pursue such a plan might have been 30 years ago before the three original malls got merged into one.
We're way past that timeframe and window.


(*it's also questionable whether the plan would really benefit the city that much in the long-term in other areas of consideration beyond the "livability", streetscape and whatnot arguments being used to moot it. A lot of people in greater Burnaby visit Metrotown solely and arguably exclusively just to visit or go to the mall. Whether that's to shop, spend a day or to work.
All of that is tax revenue money in one way shape or form or another that's currently ending up in the city's pockets (indirectly through IC), that will most likely take a big hit when the mall no longer becomes a destination beyond the bus loop or the transit interchange.
The people who actually execute plans like this and turn them into reality look at numbers and projections like that.
The people who come up with and dream up plans like this tend not to be the ones who do.

And by the time it would come to light and into clarity that the plan was a bad idea from the start, the people who came up with it will most likely be long gone while Ivanhoe will be left holding the bag.)

[logan5]

The land that Metrotown sits on is worth multiple billions of dollars, so there is a huge amount of money to be made through redevelopment of the mall. Ivanhoe Cambridge could build their mall underground and have close to 30 000 people living and working right on top of the mall, literally an elevator ride away. The mall would make even more money than it is now.

The western side of the mall could be developed first, with the eastern side still in operation, then when the first phase is finished, redevelop the eastern side. Oakridge is about half the size of Metrotown and it's being redeveloped, so this level of redevelopment is not unheard of.

One way or another that mall will be redeveloped.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by logan5

The land that Metrotown sits on is worth multiple billions of dollars, so there is a huge amount of money to be made through redevelopment of the mall. Ivanhoe Cambridge could build their mall underground and have close to 30 000 people living and working right on top of the mall, literally an elevator ride away. The mall would make even more money than it is now.

The western side of the mall could be developed first, with the eastern side still in operation, then when the first phase is finished, redevelop the eastern side. Oakridge is about half the size of Metrotown and it's being redeveloped, so this level of redevelopment is not unheard of.

One way or another that mall will be redeveloped.

You're basing all this on what, exactly?

You can't just say, "the mall would make even more money than it is now", or that "One why or another the mall will be redeveloped" when you have presented absolutely nothing to back up that position.

The only thing you've said that can be factually inarguable is that the land the mall sits on is worth billions of dollars. And that's BECAUSE OF THE MALL itself, (and the revenue it brings into the area), primarily and almost exclusively.
It's also because of the mall that the value of most of the property surrounding it is probably higher than the market rate or what it should be worth.

And the comparison with the Oakridge redevelopment is a little but asinine and short-sighted since almost nothing between the two situations are remotely comparable on a fair level.

Other than the difference in size and scale in terms of areas of redevelopment we're talking about here, there's also the fact that part of what the Oakridge redevelopment is hoping to achieve and bring forth is something that Metrotown already has and really doesn't have to work as hard to generate.
Which is the foot traffic and critical mass of population to support and justify the cost of investment that such a redevelopment would cost.
Aside from the fact of all the developments happening all around the area thanks to the proximity to the mall, there's also the fact that Metrotown is a major transit hub (with the second busiest Skytrain station outside of downtown Vancouver after Commercial Broadway) bringing in people passing through the area whether they live there or not.
Oakridge doesn't have anything like that nor is it on that level.

It also ignores the fact that with the Metropolis mall, there are other not-so-insignificant stakeholders in the vicinity whose development the mall will either affect and who themselves can affect the mall's effort to redevelop. Stakeholders like Concord who have their own redevelopment plans for the north parking lot and who don't really care what the Ivanhoe Cambridge's plans are for any future redevelopment and whose own redevelopment aren't necessarily going to follow the city's script or plans. And you also have Anthem to the West with Station Square and whatever is happening with them. Who knows how any of these will eventually affect any eventual redevelopment of the mall, if such a redevelopment even ever occurs.
Westbank never had do deal with any such factors in pursuing their plans to redevelop Oakridge since they're dealing with a mostly insulated ecosystem where they get to do what they want within it.


Sure, the mall could, by your estimation and hopeful projection make even more money than it is now. But by the same vein they could also lose hundreds of millions to billions more than it's making hand-over-fist now, and that's not even counting the actual redevelopment costs it would take to redevelop.
I'm talking about the profit they make and the sales revenue they generate.

The only thing we know for a fact is that there's never been any discussion on the part of the mall to ever pursue such a redevelopment by Ivanhoe Cambridge themselves, and if it were so clear-cut to (more) profit and revenue as you seem to be implying, and yet they still haven't.....well, that should tell you all you need to know about just how viable such a strategy could be from the perspective of the people actually looking at the actual numbers and not pulling projections out of their asses.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

Seeing as this is from the same city that tore down the Metrotown overpass because it wants to emulate the "California Experience" of walking in a mixed-use retail neighborhood with constant sunlight, I'm not surprised that they're tearing the entire mall for an uninspired "mixed use" neighborhood. That idea was bad from the start.

For the record, there's a plan to build a new overpass. Granted, it's two or three years from now, but it seems like Corrigan's "street interaction" horsecrap left along with him. I guess it's time to pass a bunch of Class-A amnesiacs around and forget about it.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Private space with limited hours to public space with no hours.

Yeah it closes at 9pm most nights, longer than most retail shops in Burnaby. The restaurants, supermarkets and theatres are opened even later into the night.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I can definitely see a PATH network or Old World glass-covered streets substituting for the existing mall just fine, if the owners ever want to sell.

Straight-out replacing Metrotown with mixed-use retail tower blocks (as the plan implies) however, would likely kill it as a citywide destination and gathering space; personally, I would see absolutely no difference between that particular rain-drenched streetfront and ones much closer to my home. Would there be enough residents by then to make up the difference?

Nah, it should be fine - wouldn't be any worse than Midtown, Lower Manhattan and the giant gap in the middle. That said, there's multiple reasons why Burnaby decided to do what they did.

Totally agree. The Metropolis is currently, and I'm sure into the future, a major anchor of Metrotown. The new downtown will just have to build around it, not on it.

Originally Posted by logan5

The land that Metrotown sits on is worth multiple billions of dollars, so there is a huge amount of money to be made through redevelopment of the mall. Ivanhoe Cambridge could build their mall underground and have close to 30 000 people living and working right on top of the mall, literally an elevator ride away. The mall would make even more money than it is now.

The western side of the mall could be developed first, with the eastern side still in operation, then when the first phase is finished, redevelop the eastern side. Oakridge is about half the size of Metrotown and it's being redeveloped, so this level of redevelopment is not unheard of.

One way or another that mall will be redeveloped.

That's what they said about the Georgia viaducts too.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

You're basing all this on what, exactly?

You can't just say, "the mall would make even more money than it is now", or that "One why or another the mall will be redeveloped" when you have presented absolutely nothing to back up that position.

Maybe you missed it in my post, but I said that there would be 30 000 people living and working right above the mall, only an elevator ride away. It's safe to assume that that would boost business.

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

The only thing you've said that can be factually inarguable is that the land the mall sits on is worth billions of dollars. And that's BECAUSE OF THE MALL itself, (and the revenue it brings into the area), primarily and almost exclusively. It's also because of the mall that the value of most of the property surrounding it is probably higher than the market rate or what it should be worth.

I estimate the value of the property the mall sits on at around 5 billion (it's a huge site). Through rezoning you could build 10's of thousands of residential units and millions of square feet of office space. That's what gives the property its high value.

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

And the comparison with the Oakridge redevelopment is a little but asinine and short-sighted since almost nothing between the two situations are remotely comparable on a fair level.

There looks to be a lot of similarities to me, but obviously you disagree and that's fine. Mostly my point was that developments of this magnitude are happening in Vancouver.

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

The only thing we know for a fact is that there's never been any discussion on the part of the mall to ever pursue such a redevelopment by Ivanhoe Cambridge themselves, and if it were so clear-cut to (more) profit and revenue as you seem to be implying, and yet they still haven't.....well, that should tell you all you need to know about just how viable such a strategy could be from the perspective of the people actually looking at the actual numbers and not pulling projections out of their asses.

Are you a top executive with Ivanhoe Cambridge? How could you possibly know what's being discussed? I know you laid out all your reasons why Oakridge is different but it's a large, successful mall that's being redeveloped. In fact Oakridge is much more successful than Metrotown, it's the second most profitable mall in Canada, so there would actually be less incentive for Oakridge to redevelop compared to Metrotown. If the second most profitable mall in Canada does a full redevelopment, then why not Metrotown?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logan5

There looks to be a lot of similarities to me, but obviously you disagree and that's fine. Mostly my point was that developments of this magnitude are happening in Vancouver.

Are you a top executive with Ivanhoe Cambridge? How could you possibly know what's being discussed? I know you laid out all your reasons why Oakridge is different but it's a large, successful mall that's being redeveloped, so I see no reason why the same thing won't be done at Metrotown.

Thing is, the Oakridge development is a Ctrl-C, not a Ctrl-V, and the jury's still out on how well it'll perform. If I were IC, I'd stick to redeveloping the parking lots (which is already becoming a thing) rather than going double or nothing on a complete rebuild.

Originally Posted by Vin

That's what they said about the Georgia viaducts too.

Which WILL be gone sometime in the future, perhaps as early as next year. Bad analogy.

[logan5]

I forgot to mention that it was Ivanhoe Cambridge, (who own Metrotown Mall) that sold Oakridge to developers a couple years ago.

[MetroYVR]

Every single mall is undergoing redevelopment: Oakridge, Brentwood, Lougheed, Coquitlam Centre, Lansdowne, Richmond Centre, City Square, Kingsgate, Willowbrook.... Metrotown will be no different, but Ivanhoe is not a developer, it will need to find a development partner such as Westbank or Shape or maybe even Concord