Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Everthing is BS till someone needs that kind of data. If more routes were added to PCS, having this data could help improve the experience.

I think if they could return intercity rail to Waterfront, it would be a whole lot better. Think about it, instead of getting off The Canadian at PCS and having to walk outside, in possibly crappy weather and through a park where there are potentially some, um, disagreeable people, to get onto the SkyTrain when you can get off at Waterfront like the good old days and transfer to Canada, Expo, SeaBus, or WCE. Not sure the reasoning behind transferring passenger rail to PCS instead of keeping it at Waterfront in the first place.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I think if they could return intercity rail to Waterfront, it would be a whole lot better. Think about it, instead of getting off The Canadian at PCS and having to walk outside, in possibly crappy weather and through a park where there are potentially some, um, disagreeable people, to get onto the SkyTrain when you can get off at Waterfront like the good old days and transfer to Canada, Expo, SeaBus, or WCE. Not sure the reasoning behind transferring passenger rail to PCS instead of keeping it at Waterfront in the first place.

Rail service is horrible here because freight takes priority. It would be even worse at Waterfront.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I think if they could return intercity rail to Waterfront, it would be a whole lot better. Think about it, instead of getting off The Canadian at PCS and having to walk outside, in possibly crappy weather and through a park where there are potentially some, um, disagreeable people, to get onto the SkyTrain when you can get off at Waterfront like the good old days and transfer to Canada, Expo, SeaBus, or WCE. Not sure the reasoning behind transferring passenger rail to PCS instead of keeping it at Waterfront in the first place.

The could do that with PCS. There is a Skytrain station close enough that a covered walkway could be built. Also, there could be plenty of parking if the need was there. Sadly, it is a forgotten station, and is ignored.

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Rail service is horrible here because freight takes priority. It would be even worse at Waterfront.

That is because Translink is so focused on the Skytrain that they have ignored low hanging fruit.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is because Translink is so focused on the Skytrain that they have ignored low hanging fruit.

To have decent rail transit then TransLink has to build it - renting time from the rail companies hasn't exactly been ideal. People here want grade separated rail (in other words Skytrain) so TransLink has been content to keep the on-ground transit as buses. Maybe in the future they'll build some on-ground rail but it just hasn't been a priority.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Sheba

To have decent rail transit then TransLink has to build it - renting time from the rail companies hasn't exactly been ideal. People here want grade separated rail (in other words Skytrain) so TransLink has been content to keep the on-ground transit as buses. Maybe in the future they'll build some on-ground rail but it just hasn't been a priority.

So, EXO and GO never had that worry?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, EXO and GO never had that worry?

They've had that worry - they've also had enough funding to build dedicated commuter tracks. If GO and the TTC were one agency and handed TL's budget, commuter rail in Toronto would suck too.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They've had that worry - they've also had enough funding to build dedicated commuter tracks. If GO and the TTC were one agency and handed TL's budget, commuter rail in Toronto would suck too.

So what you're saying is that we should have WCE in a separate agency with a separate budget?

[Migrant_Coconut]

If the budget is as big as TransLink's is now, go for it. But it won't be - they'll end up fighting each other for the same slice of pie and everybody will be worse off. The right answer is to give Vancouver as much cheddar as Toronto or Montreal.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They've had that worry - they've also had enough funding to build dedicated commuter tracks. If GO and the TTC were one agency and handed TL's budget, commuter rail in Toronto would suck too.

The province funds GO, not the city, or cities that it goes through. Interesting through, Metrolinx is much like Translink in that it is now paying for not only GO infrastructure, but also higher order transit, like LRTs.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

So what you're saying is that we should have WCE in a separate agency with a separate budget?

No, the majority of funding for Translink should come from the province, and it should focus on all it serves, not just extending another Skytrain Line.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If the budget is as big as TransLink's is now, go for it. But it won't be - they'll end up fighting each other for the same slice of pie and everybody will be worse off. The right answer is to give Vancouver as much cheddar as Toronto or Montreal.

No. Vancouver can be ignored. those other cities near it need cheddar, and lots of it, and not just a Skytrain line. Vancouver, for the most part has great transit infrastructure. Translink needs to be transformed in an agency that will not just bring a Skytrain to the suburbs. Proof of how messed up it is, going from Coquitlam Centre takes twice as long on the Skytrain than it does on the WCE. Who really thinks that is intelligent?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The province funds GO, not the city, or cities that it goes through. Interesting through, Metrolinx is much like Translink in that it is now paying for not only GO infrastructure, but also higher order transit, like LRTs.

Ditto Victoria with TransLink. I'll say it again: Ontario can afford two transit agencies, each with a TL-sized budget.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

No. Vancouver can be ignored. those other cities near it need cheddar, and lots of it, and not just a Skytrain line. Vancouver, for the most part has great transit infrastructure. Translink needs to be transformed in an agency that will not just bring a Skytrain to the suburbs. Proof of how messed up it is, going from Coquitlam Centre takes twice as long on the Skytrain than it does on the WCE. Who really thinks that is intelligent?

And yet the Millennium pulled in 148,000 riders a day during the lockdown; the WCE only got 10k, one-fifteenth as many, before the pandemic even started. What other cities need is irrelevant as long as they have the population of West Van.

Likewise, quintupling service from maybe Abbotsford to Coq Central (Waterfront isn't possible) gets you at most 40k new riders. The Langley extension alone is pegged at 71k. Unintelligent is spending the same three billion dollars on 3/5ths the ridership.

[Rico]

I would love better WCE, currently it is not very useful. It needs to be frequent and all day to be useful...that would mean dedicated tracks. With at a minimum dedicated sidings. Considering the current amount of freight on the line this means new tracks. It won't be cheap.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Before the argument starts up again, let's do some math. Coq Centre to Mission is about 42 kilometres long; at $90 million/km, which is what the GO expansion is pegged at, that's $3.9 billion. Abbotsford is another $1.1 billion on top of that. The WCE got about 10k riders in 2019, or about a thousand riders per train; assuming bi-hourly service from 5am to 8pm, that's 64 trains, or 64k riders a day.

So, do we spend $5 billion for 64k, or $3.1 billion for 71k? You already know my answer.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Ditto Victoria with TransLink. I'll say it again: Ontario can afford two transit agencies, each with a TL-sized budget.

And yet the Millennium pulled in 148,000 riders a day during the lockdown; the WCE only got 10k, one-fifteenth as many, before the pandemic even started. What other cities need is irrelevant as long as they have the population of West Van.

Likewise, quintupling service from maybe Abbotsford to Coq Central (Waterfront isn't possible) gets you at most 40k new riders. The Langley extension alone is pegged at 71k. Unintelligent is spending the same three billion dollars on 3/5ths the ridership.

What about Surrey, Langley and White Rock? Just imagine a 1 seat ride to Waterfront from those areas.

Originally Posted by Rico

I would love better WCE, currently it is not very useful. It needs to be frequent and all day to be useful...that would mean dedicated tracks. With at a minimum dedicated sidings. Considering the current amount of freight on the line this means new tracks. It won't be cheap.

Lakeshore lines in GO weren't cheap, but they are talking about 2WAD service these days.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Before the argument starts up again, let's do some math. Coq Centre to Mission is about 42 kilometres long; at $90 million/km, which is what the GO expansion is pegged at, that's $3.9 billion. Abbotsford is another $1.1 billion on top of that. The WCE got about 10k riders in 2019, or about a thousand riders per train; assuming bi-hourly service from 5am to 8pm, that's 64 trains, or 64k riders a day.

So, do we spend $5 billion for 64k, or $3.1 billion for 71k? You already know my answer.

GO's busiest line is the Lakeshore East line to Oshawa. Its ridership is 52,000
Toronto's busiest streetcar line is the 504 King. Its ridership is over 84,000
Toronto's busiest Subway is the Line 1 Yonge - University line. Its ridership is just under 800,000.

By your logic, no money should be spent on GO, and all the money must be spent on Line 1. Your logic assumes that other modes are not worth spending on until the one with the highest ridership is built out. The problem is, if that were done in Toronto, there would be an extension to Richmond Hill on line 1, but the line itself cannot carry the projected ridership.

The Lower Mainland should learn from this. By the time anything is added to the WCE network, everything north of Broadway on all the lines could be jammed packed. Then what? Well, the train arrives, you cannot fit in, and so you wait longer. The WCE could easily be extended out to Whte Rock, Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford. Those lines can get to Waterfront and even have some intermediate stops along the Skytrain to take the overflow.

Or, you can just wait till you have to wait for multiple trains to pass to fit in.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The Lower Mainland should learn from this. By the time anything is added to the WCE network, everything north of Broadway on all the lines could be jammed packed. Then what? Well, the train arrives, you cannot fit in, and so you wait longer. The WCE could easily be extended out to Whte Rock, Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford. Those lines can get to Waterfront and even have some intermediate stops along the Skytrain to take the overflow.

The minor detail you seem to be missing is that we don't have the transit budget that Toronto has. There are a lot of transit lines I would love to see here but we have to work with the budget we've got. That means we have to prioritize and lines that have more ridership are going to be near the top of the 'to do' list.

Adding anything to the WCE is going to mean creating brand new dedicated rail lines and has been noted by myself and others recently, that isn't going to be cheap. Do I think CoV has been spoiled and the rest of the region deserves better transit service - yes. Do I think adding rail everywhere is the answer - no.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What about Surrey, Langley and White Rock? Just imagine a 1 seat ride to Waterfront from those areas.

Sure. I can also imagine a maglev to Calgary, but I suspect I’ll be disappointed in that regard.

There’s no ROW to Whalley save the interurban (whose numbers get worse with every study); from there to Pacific Central is another $3-4 billion of dedicated track. All things considered, SoF's best chance for a straight shot downtown is the HSR.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

GO's busiest line is the Lakeshore East line to Oshawa. Its ridership is 52,000
Toronto's busiest streetcar line is the 504 King. Its ridership is over 84,000
Toronto's busiest Subway is the Line 1 Yonge - University line. Its ridership is just under 800,000.

By your logic, no money should be spent on GO, and all the money must be spent on Line 1. Your logic assumes that other modes are not worth spending on until the one with the highest ridership is built out. The problem is, if that were done in Toronto, there would be an extension to Richmond Hill on line 1, but the line itself cannot carry the projected ridership.

The Lower Mainland should learn from this. By the time anything is added to the WCE network, everything north of Broadway on all the lines could be jammed packed. Then what? Well, the train arrives, you cannot fit in, and so you wait longer. The WCE could easily be extended out to Whte Rock, Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford. Those lines can get to Waterfront and even have some intermediate stops along the Skytrain to take the overflow.

Or, you can just wait till you have to wait for multiple trains to pass to fit in.

I’ll say it again: GO and the TTC have the money for it - and Ottawa likes them more. GO's expansion and the Big Move involve blowing $25+ billion over ten years, while TransLink has to beg for $7 billion; give TL enough money for two SkyTrains and full WCE upgrades all at once, and I’d say go for it, but we don’t... getting money for one SkyTrain at a time (while not having it downgraded to street rail) is already like pulling teeth. Now you want to buy one SkyTrain for the price of two because “fairness?”

If the 25,000 pphpd train is full-up from downtown to Commercial, then adding a 3,000 pphpd train will have absolutely no impact at all. Might as well build the downtown streetcar – same capacity, and it’s cheaper.

As for the King streetcar, it was set up a hundred years ago when rail was cheap; start it ten years ago, and there's a good chance it'd be a bus.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The minor detail you seem to be missing is that we don't have the transit budget that Toronto has. There are a lot of transit lines I would love to see here but we have to work with the budget we've got. That means we have to prioritize and lines that have more ridership are going to be near the top of the 'to do' list.

Adding anything to the WCE is going to mean creating brand new dedicated rail lines and has been noted by myself and others recently, that isn't going to be cheap. Do I think CoV has been spoiled and the rest of the region deserves better transit service - yes. Do I think adding rail everywhere is the answer - no.

You are missing the fact that Toronto pays for its transit. The province pays for GO. So, have the local transit get paid for the cities and have the province pay for WCE and other transit of its kind.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sure. I can also imagine a maglev to Calgary, but I suspect I’ll be disappointed in that regard.

There’s no ROW to Whalley save the interurban (whose numbers get worse with every study); from there to Pacific Central is another $3-4 billion of dedicated track. All things considered, SoF's best chance for a straight shot downtown is the HSR.

A maglev to Calgary?
HSR for SoF?
We are talking about a commuter train, not a pipe dream.
Why not use the old ROW for a simple line through there?

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I’ll say it again: GO and the TTC have the money for it - and Ottawa likes them more. GO's expansion and the Big Move involve blowing $25+ billion over ten years, while TransLink has to beg for $7 billion; give TL enough money for two SkyTrains and full WCE upgrades all at once, and I’d say go for it, but we don’t... getting money for one SkyTrain at a time (while not having it downgraded to street rail) is already like pulling teeth. Now you want to buy one SkyTrain for the price of two because “fairness?”

If the 25,000 pphpd train is full-up from downtown to Commercial, then adding a 3,000 pphpd train will have absolutely no impact at all. Might as well build the downtown streetcar – same capacity, and it’s cheaper.

As for the King streetcar, it was set up a hundred years ago when rail was cheap; start it ten years ago, and there's a good chance it'd be a bus.

Blame your provincial government. They are the problem. The other problem is the local councils demanding frivolous things like LRTs. That doesn't help Translink get the support it really needs.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You are missing the fact that Toronto pays for its transit. The province pays for GO. So, have the local transit get paid for the cities and have the province pay for WCE and other transit of its kind.

The TTC gets ~60% of its money from fare revenue; TransLink, ~33%. Take away Victoria's funding/support for TL and nothing will ever get built.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

We are talking about a commuter train, not a pipe dream.

Why not use the old ROW for a simple line through there?

That's the point - in the case of Surrey to downtown, there's very little difference. At least the HSR is actually worth a business case study.

See ten years' worth of previous answers: the old ROW, or the interurban, is long, winding, 99% freight trains and basically unsuitable for frequent passenger rail. Find another route.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Blame your provincial government. They are the problem. The other problem is the local councils demanding frivolous things like LRTs. That doesn't help Translink get the support it really needs.

Exactly. So if you want WCE to Abbotsford, start yelling at the Province instead of TransLink.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The TTC gets ~60% of its money from fare revenue; TransLink, ~33%. Take away Victoria's funding/support for TL and nothing will ever get built.

What about Metrolinx? They are the ones running GO.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's the point - in the case of Surrey to downtown, there's very little difference. At least the HSR is actually worth a business case study.

See ten years' worth of previous answers: the old ROW, or the interurban, is long, winding, 99% freight trains and basically unsuitable for frequent passenger rail. Find another route.

It isn't only about Surrey.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Exactly. So if you want WCE to Abbotsford, start yelling at the Province instead of TransLink.

That is the first thing I agree with that you have said.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What about Metrolinx? They are the ones running GO.

It isn't only about Surrey.

That is the first thing I agree with that you have said.

Same thing, plus funding from all three levels on capital projects. And the fact that their TransLink is itself run by a TransLink should put to rest any discussion of restructuring BC to be more like Ontario.

No it isn't - that's what SkyTrain to Langley and BRT to White Rock is for. Abbotsford can barely get 600+ people to ride the FVX, so a train will have to wait.

Back atcha.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Same thing, plus funding from all three levels on capital projects. And the fact that their TransLink is itself run by a TransLink should put to rest any discussion of restructuring BC to be more like Ontario.

No it isn't - that's what SkyTrain to Langley and BRT to White Rock is for. Abbotsford can barely get 600+ people to ride the FVX, so a train will have to wait.

Back atcha.

The people in charge of GO is not in charge of he subways. Translink runs both. That is the problem. They are unable to focus on 2 different things, and it is showing.