The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes. But there won't be many gas stations.....

Closer to home, Manhattan now has 11x as many charging sites as gas stations, with less than 30 gas stations for a population of over 1.6M.

I expect a lot of people are really going to be surprised by how quickly gas stations start disappearing as EV adoption ramps. Especially given how many more car owners can charge at home or work in North America. Though we're probably a full decade away from Norway kind of numbers. I fully expect, in my lifetime (I'm in my early 40s) to see gas drivers have range anxiety on some trips.

Downtown Vancouver (population 120,000+) now has one gas station. Now owned, it is said, by Concord Pacific so...

Headed east on Hastings Street there's a Chevron you can fill at. For a while.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Downtown Vancouver (population 120,000+) now has one gas station. Now owned, it is said, by Concord Pacific so...

Headed east on Hastings Street there's a Chevron you can fill at. For a while.

The national average is 3.1 gas stations per 10 000 residents. Given the prevalence of garages in Canada, I fully expect to be down to a third of that by 2040. A lot of the urban and suburban locations (especially at the corners of intersections) are worth much more developed than selling gas.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think I picked a Civic touring and put on 13%.

But as you point out there are cheaper options. I don't think most people buying a Civic are getting the fully loaded $42K model. Also, if you drive less than say 10 000 km/yr it's even harder to justify the Tesla.

If you only drive 5-10k/year you're probably better off with Uber/car sharing in any major city.

Bottom line is the up-front price argument against EVs is getting thinner and thinner.

And this all assumes you put zero value personally on carbon emissions.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I don't understand you people...

I fail to understand why any of you would be against such a rebate.

That's how a lot of us feel about you.

A lot of your ideas seem okay on a napkin but won't work in the real world

like Truenorth stated the government isn't going to create a rebate for a tiny fraction of a percent of the population.
There's 26,000,000+ registered road motor vehicles in Canada. I'd rather see Federal and Provincial governments dole out larger rebates for both hybrids and full EVs to get more ICE vehicles off the road immediately. Even offer a trade-in rebate to get rid of your ICE vehicle, particularly in Quebec and Ontario which have the lions share of passenger vehicles.

That brief video on Norway was interesting.

Even though electric vehicles aren't a panacea for carbon emissions, they can still have a sizable impact on fossil fuel consumption.

Battery and fuel cell vehicles have already shaved off 1.5 million barrels a day of global oil consumption. That's about 1.5% of total demand

1.5 million barrels of oil/day worldwide. That's over 238 million litres a day.
A great start

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Why would I want to convert my ICE car to electric? I think gas powered cars will continue to exist for the next 100 years.

20, sure but mostly as hybrids/PHEV besides maybe the poorest, least developed nations. 100? museum pieces. The paradigm shift is happening quicker than most can wrap their head around.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

If you only drive 5-10k/year you're probably better off with Uber/car sharing in any major city.

Bottom line is the up-front price argument against EVs is getting thinner and thinner.

And this all assumes you put zero value personally on carbon emissions.

exactly. And the avg Canadian drives around 20k-25k kms/yr so ownership for these folks makes sense.

It's satisfying when I drive my Dad's Sorento in full EV mode knowing its not belching out hydrocarbon pollution and is charged at night by Hydroelectricity from Niagara Falls (thanks Nikola Tesla/Westinghouse)
When I get back into my Camry I have that feeling of driving an old fashioned vehicle and that I'm missing out

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Wigs

....the government isn't going to create a rebate for a tiny fraction of a percent of the population.
There's 26,000,000+ registered road motor vehicles in Canada. I'd rather see Federal and Provincial governments dole out larger rebates for both hybrids and full EVs to get more ICE vehicles off the road immediately....

As someone with an old ICE vehicle - an early 90s Miata - I'd love to have a conversion kit to modernize the powerplant while maintaining a fun-to-drive car (and keeping a manual transmission). That being said, I agree that it would make no sense for a government to put subsidy funding into a program that would be significantly more expensive per ICE engine "replaced" while the low-hanging fruit - outright replacement of ICE vehicles with modern EVs - has yet to be completed.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

As someone with an old ICE vehicle - an early 90s Miata - I'd love to have a conversion kit to modernize the powerplant while maintaining a fun-to-drive car (and keeping a manual transmission). That being said, I agree that it would make no sense for a government to put subsidy funding into a program that would be significantly more expensive per ICE engine "replaced" while the low-hanging fruit - outright replacement of ICE vehicles with modern EVs - has yet to be completed.

There have been a few conversions. Here's one - the parts alone are about $27,000. Then you have to find someone to do the conversion (estimated in the UK, that has a conversion industry, at about $17,000).

The good news is that the new Miata which is likely to be around 2025 will be an EV. And it probably won't cost hugely more than an old Miata, and a conversion kit, and it should have way more range and performance than the converted car.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

If you only drive 5-10k/year you're probably better off with Uber/car sharing in any major city.

Average mileage in Canada is about 15 000 km/yr. So there's likely plenty of people who are close to 10 000 km/yr.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Bottom line is the up-front price argument against EVs is getting thinner and thinner.

The math is getting better. But it's still ridiculous to suggest a $60k Model 3 as an alternative to a $40k Civic, which is the comparison that was being discussed. If the comparison was between a Nissan Leaf or Kona Electric and Honda Civic, then the value of the EV is more obvious.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

And this all assumes you put zero value personally on carbon emissions.

Realistically, most people don't penalize themselves above the carbon tax. If they cared that much, they probably aren't driving much anyway. After all, no car is still better than BEV.

[BIMBAM]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Realistically, most people don't penalize themselves above the carbon tax. If they cared that much, they probably aren't driving much anyway. After all, no car is still better than BEV.

I don't feel this is true at all, those intangibles are very important, it's a big part of why I got the BEV I just did. I went with no car at all well into my thirties, but I now need one, I have a baby and I'm not pushing him to doctor's appointments in a stroller in January in Quebec, or going to the hospital on a call at 2am relying on Ubers. It's probably not financially justified to go electric in the short term vs. ICE, but the feeling that I am doing the best thing given my particular circumstances is important.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by BIMBAM

I don't feel this is true at all, those intangibles are very important, it's a big part of why I got the BEV I just did. I went with no car at all well into my thirties, but I now need one, I have a baby and I'm not pushing him to doctor's appointments in a stroller in January in Quebec, or going to the hospital on a call at 2am relying on Ubers. It's probably not financially justified to go electric in the short term vs. ICE, but the feeling that I am doing the best thing given my particular circumstances is important.

You're not most people. Like I said, for most people who care that much, they'd go without a car. Which is exactly what you did, until a car was really needed. And with half the country not even favourable to the carbon tax, I doubt the average person really cares that much.

My personal experience, FWIW, has only been BEV drivers who wanted the car for either gas savings or cool tech ("Look how fast this Tesla is!"). I don't know a single person who bought an EV at substantial premium for exclusively environmental motivations. Mostly the premium was justified on net savings or performance. Saving the planet was the bonus.

I don't even think this is a bad thing to be honest. It's way easier to motivate people to save money than it is to motivate people to do the right thing.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Average mileage in Canada is about 15 000 km/yr. So there's likely plenty of people who are close to 10 000 km/yr.

I swear it used to be closer to 20,000km/yr average about 10-20 years ago .

With covid and now more people working from home I'm sure it's closer to 15k/yr like you mentioned.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I swear it used to be closer to 20,000km/yr average about 10-20 years ago .

With covid and now more people working from home I'm sure it's closer to 15k/yr like you mentioned.

As far back as 2009, it was 16 249 km, per Statscan. I think people forget how many 2-3 car households there are in Canada where one car is just sitting around or almost exclusively used for that 20-30 km round-trip commute everyday. There's also the aging population who just drives less in general. And then there's the impact of the the changing work culture, denser cities and higher fuel costs. So yeah, 15 000 km is closer to average these days. And even that estimate was pre-covid. In some jurisdictions, they actually noticed an increase in mileage with electrification. Probably less inhibitions from fuel costs.

[travis3000]

I average 20,000 to 25,000KM per year of driving. There are cheaper gasoline options even compared to the cheapest EV so I understand why many people would choose a $30,000 ICE when the cheapest EV is 50K+. Just depends how much money you have available and what you are able to by.

For my personal situation it made sense to go Tesla because I was already shopping in a $50,000+ budget for my next car. Im an independent salesperson, so I can use a car as a tax haven. So even though I paid 73K for my Tesla, the actual price after HST reductions, 1 year federal depreciation EV incentives and other accounting tricks, I really paid about 48K. So given that I was prepared to spend $60,000 on an Audi, BMW, Acura or Lexus... a 70K Tesla wasn't out of the ballpark for me.

As time goes on, and cheaper models are produced there will be more opportunities for people to consider an EV in that $30,000-$40,000 price range. That opens it up to many who wouldn't have considered an EV before. I agree for someone who only drives 10,000KM per year... why spend 55K on an EV when you can get a base model gas car for 25K. It would take 20 years to make back those savings. Doesn't make sense.

[Truenorth00]

Isn't a Tesla the pre-requisite to be a realtor these days? Lol

That's basically a job where higher end BEV is a really good fit.

[whatnext]

From the Globe & Mail today:

Unsold electric vehicles are piling up – people like the idea but are not buying them
GUS CARLSON
SPECIAL TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL
PUBLISHED JULY 22, 2023
FOR SUBSCRIBERS
Gus Carlson is a U.S.-based columnist for The Globe and Mail.

Some auto-industry observers are calling it a “field of dreams” moment, but if electric-vehicle makers can’t figure out how to bridge the gap between consumers’ curiosity in the products and their willingness to buy them, it may become a nightmare on Main Street.

The supply of unsold EVs on U.S. dealer lots has swelled 350 per cent so far this year, to more than 92,000 units in June. That’s about three months’ worth of inventory and nearly twice the industry average, according to a new report from Cox Automotive, the people behind the Kelley Blue Book auto-pricing guides.

With the average new EV costing US$64,000, that’s about US$6-billion in stock collecting dust – and all at a time when dealers are offering huge incentives for the summer sales season. Among the biggest losers – Genesis, the Hyundai luxury brand, sold only 18 of its high-end US$80,000 EV sedans in June, and some Audi and GMC EV models topped the 100-day inventory mark, Cox said.

By comparison, dealers have only 54 days’ worth of gas-powered vehicles on their lots, less than the usual 70-day threshold. The average cost of a gas-powered car is about US$30,000, less than half the price of the average EV.

Automakers such as Toyota and Honda are taking advantage of the opportunity presented by buyers’ hesitancy on EVs and spending heavily on advertising their hybrid models. On average, hybrids cost about US$39,000, not counting charging equipment for plug-in models, which can add a few thousand dollars more to the total outlay....

... While high interest rates and lingering inflation may be partly to blame for soft sales, the real story behind the unsold EVs is that while consumers may be interested in the concept, they are wary of buying them. The two big reasons for this gap between curiosity and purchase: price and charging concerns.

Horror stories of drivers and their families getting stranded in the record heat during summer vacation road trips when their EVs run out of juice have become commonplace.

Like the South Florida family I know who got stuck in a traffic jam in their Tesla just about 15 kilometres from home after a trip to Disney World near Orlando. After an hour of stop-and-go, and having turned off the air-conditioning in the 35-degree heat to conserve juice, they finally made it to an exit that took them to a service station with EV charging stations.

But relief was still more than an hour away – the lineup to use the chargers was long and winding – and when they finally plugged in, the electrical grid was so overloaded charging took longer than expected. The final 15 kilometres of their journey took more than three hours – a trek marked by frustration and near dehydration.....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...tric-vehicles/

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by whatnext

From the Globe & Mail today:

Unsold electric vehicles are piling up – people like the idea but are not buying them
GUS CARLSON
SPECIAL TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL
PUBLISHED JULY 22, 2023
FOR SUBSCRIBERS
Gus Carlson is a U.S.-based columnist for The Globe and Mail.

Some auto-industry observers are calling it a “field of dreams” moment, but if electric-vehicle makers can’t figure out how to bridge the gap between consumers’ curiosity in the products and their willingness to buy them, it may become a nightmare on Main Street.

The supply of unsold EVs on U.S. dealer lots has swelled 350 per cent so far this year, to more than 92,000 units in June. That’s about three months’ worth of inventory and nearly twice the industry average, according to a new report from Cox Automotive, the people behind the Kelley Blue Book auto-pricing guides.

With the average new EV costing US$64,000, that’s about US$6-billion in stock collecting dust – and all at a time when dealers are offering huge incentives for the summer sales season. Among the biggest losers – Genesis, the Hyundai luxury brand, sold only 18 of its high-end US$80,000 EV sedans in June, and some Audi and GMC EV models topped the 100-day inventory mark, Cox said.

By comparison, dealers have only 54 days’ worth of gas-powered vehicles on their lots, less than the usual 70-day threshold. The average cost of a gas-powered car is about US$30,000, less than half the price of the average EV.

Automakers such as Toyota and Honda are taking advantage of the opportunity presented by buyers’ hesitancy on EVs and spending heavily on advertising their hybrid models. On average, hybrids cost about US$39,000, not counting charging equipment for plug-in models, which can add a few thousand dollars more to the total outlay....

... While high interest rates and lingering inflation may be partly to blame for soft sales, the real story behind the unsold EVs is that while consumers may be interested in the concept, they are wary of buying them. The two big reasons for this gap between curiosity and purchase: price and charging concerns.

Horror stories of drivers and their families getting stranded in the record heat during summer vacation road trips when their EVs run out of juice have become commonplace.

Like the South Florida family I know who got stuck in a traffic jam in their Tesla just about 15 kilometres from home after a trip to Disney World near Orlando. After an hour of stop-and-go, and having turned off the air-conditioning in the 35-degree heat to conserve juice, they finally made it to an exit that took them to a service station with EV charging stations.

But relief was still more than an hour away – the lineup to use the chargers was long and winding – and when they finally plugged in, the electrical grid was so overloaded charging took longer than expected. The final 15 kilometres of their journey took more than three hours – a trek marked by frustration and near dehydration.....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...tric-vehicles/

I suspect this has to do with high-interest rates dampening demand for expensive vehicles, more than it does with the technology itself.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by whatnext

From the Globe & Mail today:

Unsold electric vehicles are piling up – people like the idea but are not buying them
GUS CARLSON
SPECIAL TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL
PUBLISHED JULY 22, 2023
FOR SUBSCRIBERS
Gus Carlson is a U.S.-based columnist for The Globe and Mail.

Some auto-industry observers are calling it a “field of dreams” moment, but if electric-vehicle makers can’t figure out how to bridge the gap between consumers’ curiosity in the products and their willingness to buy them, it may become a nightmare on Main Street.

The supply of unsold EVs on U.S. dealer lots has swelled 350 per cent so far this year, to more than 92,000 units in June. That’s about three months’ worth of inventory and nearly twice the industry average, according to a new report from Cox Automotive, the people behind the Kelley Blue Book auto-pricing guides.

With the average new EV costing US$64,000, that’s about US$6-billion in stock collecting dust – and all at a time when dealers are offering huge incentives for the summer sales season. Among the biggest losers – Genesis, the Hyundai luxury brand, sold only 18 of its high-end US$80,000 EV sedans in June, and some Audi and GMC EV models topped the 100-day inventory mark, Cox said.

By comparison, dealers have only 54 days’ worth of gas-powered vehicles on their lots, less than the usual 70-day threshold. The average cost of a gas-powered car is about US$30,000, less than half the price of the average EV.

Automakers such as Toyota and Honda are taking advantage of the opportunity presented by buyers’ hesitancy on EVs and spending heavily on advertising their hybrid models. On average, hybrids cost about US$39,000, not counting charging equipment for plug-in models, which can add a few thousand dollars more to the total outlay....

... While high interest rates and lingering inflation may be partly to blame for soft sales, the real story behind the unsold EVs is that while consumers may be interested in the concept, they are wary of buying them. The two big reasons for this gap between curiosity and purchase: price and charging concerns.

Horror stories of drivers and their families getting stranded in the record heat during summer vacation road trips when their EVs run out of juice have become commonplace.

Like the South Florida family I know who got stuck in a traffic jam in their Tesla just about 15 kilometres from home after a trip to Disney World near Orlando. After an hour of stop-and-go, and having turned off the air-conditioning in the 35-degree heat to conserve juice, they finally made it to an exit that took them to a service station with EV charging stations.

But relief was still more than an hour away – the lineup to use the chargers was long and winding – and when they finally plugged in, the electrical grid was so overloaded charging took longer than expected. The final 15 kilometres of their journey took more than three hours – a trek marked by frustration and near dehydration.....

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...tric-vehicles/

The only time I ever ran out of fuel was in an ICE car. My Hyundai Elantra told me I had 80KM until empty. So I was only 50KM from home, I figured no worries... I can make it... Wrong! Car started shaking on the highway and I was pulled over beside super fast traffic flying by me for 2 hours as I waited for my grandparents to come give me some fuel.

Has yet to happen in the Tesla

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by travis3000

The only time I ever ran out of fuel was in an ICE car. My Hyundai Elantra told me I had 80KM until empty. So I was only 50KM from home, I figured no worries... I can make it... Wrong! Car started shaking on the highway and I was pulled over beside super fast traffic flying by me for 2 hours as I waited for my grandparents to come give me some fuel.

Has yet to happen in the Tesla

Wow, that's awful. I've always driven Japanese vehicles (Honda, Toyota, Mazda, back to Toyota) and they always have a buffer for situations just like this. Even when the 'E' light is on you usually have enough left to find a gas station.

I recall the older Hyundais and Kias (say 8-10+ years ago) were horrible for exaggerating gas mileage.

[homebucket]

Anyone seen one of these yet? Only got a picture of the back but the front looks pretty good actually.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by travis3000

I average 20,000 to 25,000KM per year of driving. There are cheaper gasoline options even compared to the cheapest EV so I understand why many people would choose a $30,000 ICE when the cheapest EV is 50K+. Just depends how much money you have available and what you are able to by.

For my personal situation it made sense to go Tesla because I was already shopping in a $50,000+ budget for my next car. Im an independent salesperson, so I can use a car as a tax haven. So even though I paid 73K for my Tesla, the actual price after HST reductions, 1 year federal depreciation EV incentives and other accounting tricks, I really paid about 48K. So given that I was prepared to spend $60,000 on an Audi, BMW, Acura or Lexus... a 70K Tesla wasn't out of the ballpark for me.

As time goes on, and cheaper models are produced there will be more opportunities for people to consider an EV in that $30,000-$40,000 price range. That opens it up to many who wouldn't have considered an EV before. I agree for someone who only drives 10,000KM per year... why spend 55K on an EV when you can get a base model gas car for 25K. It would take 20 years to make back those savings. Doesn't make sense.

I priced out an electric vehicle, a Hyundai, most after rebates in BC are 40,000 - 45,000. Anyway as I built and priced and estimated down payment and trade in I could get something for around $500/mo. I haven't looked into charging costs but I currently pay about $450-$500 a month for gas so it's doable to get an EV for me. My BF keeps saying to wait as there will be some cheaper models coming in 2024, Kia and Hyundai are both coming out with smaller models in their EV and Ioniq ranges, expected to be priced below 40,000. fingers crossed.