The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by travis3000

And Tesla's are all around 50-70K after taxes (Model 3, Model Y). So they really aren't THAT expensive in the current environment. Even a new Honda Civic right now goes for 40K. Cheaper yes, but once you minus out gas/synthetic oil changes/engine filters, brake changes... the Tesla is actually cheaper.

For $42k, you're getting a fully loaded Civic Sedan with taxes in. An RWD Model 3 with no additional options is $60k taxes in. All from the websites. Even deducting the $5k rebate, that's a $13k difference. Let's assume $500/yr for maintenance and $2000/yr (assuming 7L/100km @ $1.5/L and 19 000 km/yr) in gas, that's at least 5 years before break even, not including interest or any fuel cost for the Tesla.

I've seen this comparison before. And it reminds me of the time when I was 13 and was trying to convince my dad to replace his MPV with an Integra, for financial reasons, of course.

What should really kill cars like the Civic is something like the plug in Prius, or maybe the ID3 if it ever came to North America.

[Wigs]

All 50 electric vehicles for sale in Canada in 2023

With new models cropping up left and right, it can be hard to keep track of all the EVs on the market today—so here's a list
Matthew Guy
Published Mar 09, 2023 • Last updated Mar 10, 2023
https://driving.ca/car-culture/lists...le-canada-2023



The Kia Niro EV starts at around $47k (qualifies for the $5k Federal rebate, more if you live in BC or Quebec) and has a range up to 407km
Longtime American auto reviewer, Motorweek just gave it a good review despite not being quick like Tesla model 3 or other electrics. It's still quicker than the typical ICE vehicle.
• Video Link

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I don't understand you people. Let's say the reno is $25k, that still at LEAST $15k less than you would pay for a new one and create local jobs as opposed to subsidizing ones in Mexico, the US, Korea, or Japan. It is also vastly better for the environment.

If you don't want to then fine but many would and isn't the whole point of rebates for BEVs is to get Canadians into zero emissions vehicles? What does it matter to you if they are new or old? Why should the rebates only apply to new vehicles nearly none of which are currently built in Canada?

I fail to understand why any of you would be against such a rebate.

I don't think anyone would be against this, but the market doesn't currently exist.
There's no company in Canada offering assembly line level/mass conversions (haven't heard of one in the US either than small niche guys catering to wealthy) so your point is moot. It's basically fantasy.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For $42k, you're getting a fully loaded Civic Sedan with taxes in. An RWD Model 3 with no additional options is $60k taxes in. All from the websites. Even deducting the $5k rebate, that's a $13k difference. Let's assume $500/yr for maintenance and $2000/yr (assuming 7L/100km @ $1.5/L and 19 000 km/yr) in gas, that's at least 5 years before break even, not including interest or any fuel cost for the Tesla.

I've seen this comparison before. And it reminds me of the time when I was 13 and was trying to convince my dad to replace his MPV with an Integra, for financial reasons, of course.

What should really kill cars like the Civic is something like the plug in Prius, or maybe the ID3 if it ever came to North America.

Where are you getting $42k for a Civic Sedan? a top of the line sedan retails for $33k MSRP. $37k if you upgrade to the hatchback. This is $18-22k cheaper than the *cheapest* Tesla Model 3, which has an MSRP of $55k.

Tesla saves you maybe $10k on gas and maintenance over a Civic over 6 years (less once Honda shifts the upper tier models to Hybrid powertrains in 2024) at current gas prices in Ontario, plus you get a $5k incentive, so the Civic still works out cheaper even at the fully loaded trim.

Of course, the base Civic LX sedan has an MSRP of 26k which is far cheaper still, albeit with fewer features..

A Tesla will likely be cheaper in Quebec and BC given the higher gas prices and larger EV incentives, but not really in Ontario.

What would kill the Civic is a well-equipped EV in the mid-$40's, or a more base model which is sub-$40k.

The Volvo EX30, if it retains the US pricing scheme in Canada, promises to get close to that with the base model having an MSRP of about $46k. With incentives in Ontario, that's only a ~$3k premium over the Civic Touring.

Civics have also notably moved up-market in recent years and are not the economy boxes they once were. The Hyundai Elantra takes up that space today, with a $21k MSRP. The Civic has a 25% premium over that.

Also - don't EVs require more frequent brake changes than ICEs?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Where are you getting $42k for a Civic Sedan?

I think I picked a Civic touring and put on 13%.

But as you point out there are cheaper options. I don't think most people buying a Civic are getting the fully loaded $42K model. Also, if you drive less than say 10 000 km/yr it's even harder to justify the Tesla.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Also - don't EVs require more frequent brake changes than ICEs?

BEVs should have fewer brake pad changes because of regen. They might wear out tires faster because of the acceleration and weight.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I don't understand you people. Let's say the reno is $25k, that still at LEAST $15k less than you would pay for a new one and create local jobs as opposed to subsidizing ones in Mexico, the US, Korea, or Japan. It is also vastly better for the environment.

If you don't want to then fine but many would and isn't the whole point of rebates for BEVs is to get Canadians into zero emissions vehicles? What does it matter to you if they are new or old? Why should the rebates only apply to new vehicles nearly none of which are currently built in Canada?

I fail to understand why any of you would be against such a rebate.

1) Something like what you suggest doesn't exist. You can't just take any car and get it converted.

2) Even if you could convert a car's powertrain, the value may not work out. My own example. I have a 10 yr old Jetta Hybrid (rare). There's no way, I'm putting $20k into this car to get another 10 yrs. I'm not sure the body will be rust free for that long in Ontario.

This kind of conversion industry is worthwhile for collectors cars. It's not worthwhile for the average car that has a life of 12-15 yrs on the road.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) Something like what you suggest doesn't exist. You can't just take any car and get it converted.

2) Even if you could convert a car's powertrain, the value may not work out. My own example. I have a 10 yr old Jetta Hybrid (rare). There's no way, I'm putting $20k into this car to get another 10 yrs. I'm not sure the body will be rust free for that long in Ontario.

This kind of conversion industry is worthwhile for collectors cars. It's not worthwhile for the average car that has a life of 12-15 yrs on the road.

The average age of a car in Canada is 11 years or 2012 models. Ain't no way there's a market for it, like you state.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

The average age of a car in Canada is 11 years or 2012 models. Ain't no way there's a market for it, like you state.

Cars are lasting longer and those average ages are going up. But even then, it doesn't make financial sense. If you buy a new car, your are probably making payments for 5-7 yrs these days. Now half way through the life of the car, you're going to spend 40-50% of the original cost of the car to do nothing but save fuel and maintenance for another 6-7 years. Even at $20k, most people are unlikely to save enough to make that math work. And that's before considering all the risks involved.

If you have a new car, it just makes sense to sell it and put the residual towards a new EV, if you want an an EV. And if you have a used car? You bought used for a reason. You definitely aren't spending $20k on a conversion. Just ride the car into the ground.

[BIMBAM]

Originally Posted by Wigs

All 50 electric vehicles for sale in Canada in 2023

With new models cropping up left and right, it can be hard to keep track of all the EVs on the market today—so here's a list
Matthew Guy
Published Mar 09, 2023 • Last updated Mar 10, 2023
https://driving.ca/car-culture/lists...le-canada-2023



The Kia Niro EV starts at around $47k (qualifies for the $5k Federal rebate, more if you live in BC or Quebec) and has a range up to 407km
Longtime American auto reviewer, Motorweek just gave it a good review despite not being quick like Tesla model 3 or other electrics. It's still quicker than the typical ICE vehicle.
• Video Link

I bought a 2023 Kia Niro BEV a month ago and I am very happy with my purchase. Was quoted a 6-12 month wait time, but got it in 2 months. It feels like a more expensive car than it is, and is powerful enough for anything I'd want, especially when it is put into Sport mode. I purchased it as it had the best combination of price, wait time, and features.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Cars are lasting longer and those average ages are going up. But even then, it doesn't make financial sense. If you buy a new car, your are probably making payments for 5-7 yrs these days. Now half way through the life of the car, you're going to spend 40-50% of the original cost of the car to do nothing but save fuel and maintenance for another 6-7 years. Even at $20k, most people are unlikely to save enough to make that math work. And that's before considering all the risks involved.

If you have a new car, it just makes sense to sell it and put the residual towards a new EV, if you want an an EV. And if you have a used car? You bought used for a reason. You definitely aren't spending $20k on a conversion. Just ride the car into the ground.

And let's not forget that the original purpose ssiguy put forward was this was for the "plebians". The people he's talking about aren't going to afford to throw another 25k into a vehicle after they managed to get one. They are buying used or low end new because they can't afford to buy a higher end or EV car.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by BIMBAM

I bought a 2023 Kia Niro BEV a month ago and I am very happy with my purchase. Was quoted a 6-12 month wait time, but got it in 2 months. It feels like a more expensive car than it is, and is powerful enough for anything I'd want, especially when it is put into Sport mode. I purchased it as it had the best combination of price, wait time, and features.

glad to hear

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

And let's not forget that the original purpose ssiguy put forward was this was for the "plebians". The people he's talking about aren't going to afford to throw another 25k into a vehicle after they managed to get one. They are buying used or low end new because they can't afford to buy a higher end or EV car.

exactly

[Architype]

It's an idea, but pretty hard to devise a system of conversion to accommodate all makes of ICE vehicles to EVs, since there are so many different configurations of vehicles, each one would have to be customized. The problem is that EVs are designed from the ground up, the batteries add so much weight and use so much space, they are put under the floor of the EV. In a conversion, where would you put the battery? If the car is new, the conversion is an unrealistic additional cost; if the car is old, the remaining lifespan may not justify the cost.

However, conversion kits do exist to some degree, as you can see in this link. The downside is cost, likely equivalent to a brand new Toyota.

the weight differential for a retrofitted vehicle must not exceed 20%

https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news...-electric-car/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Architype

.

However, conversion kits do exist to some degree, as you can see in this link. The downside is cost, likely equivalent to a brand new Toyota.

https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news...-electric-car/

Just for ssiguy to ignore....

From the site you gave:

On average, retrofitting can cost between €15,000 and €20,000.

Today the EUR:CAD is 1:1.47. So we're talking CA$22-29k.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) Something like what you suggest doesn't exist. You can't just take any car and get it converted.

2) Even if you could convert a car's powertrain, the value may not work out. My own example. I have a 10 yr old Jetta Hybrid (rare). There's no way, I'm putting $20k into this car to get another 10 yrs. I'm not sure the body will be rust free for that long in Ontario.

This kind of conversion industry is worthwhile for collectors cars. It's not worthwhile for the average car that has a life of 12-15 yrs on the road.

I could never figure out why VW dumped the Jetta Hybrid so quickly, especially after they were busted for Dieselgate. How has your experience with it been?

[ssiguy]

If there is no demand, fine. If they are too expensive, fine. If they can't find mechanics, fine. If there is no real industry to do it, fine. None of those issues, however, changes the fact that the rebates should still apply. If only 100 people in the country decide to do it, they should still get the rebate if for no other reason than it keeps that money withing the Canadian economy as opposed to send it directly to another one.

I think most people who would do it are people with older cars and want to keep them whether for nostalgic reasons or they are collectors. Older cars always have much higher emissions and those over 40 years vastly more so getting them off oil is money well spent. There is no such thing as getting a new vehicle that has lower total emissions than repurposing the one you have.

A person may only save $10k but for many people, especially with today's higher interest rates, $10k is big bucks. Let's be serious here kids, with so many BEV offerings {as BIMBAM's above post proves} the main inhibitor of people purchasing BEVs over traditional ICE vehicles is that they are simply too damn expensive so if people need a more affordable option to get into a BEV then what's the problem? It's not coincidence that the bigger houses in more prestigious areas are the ones with the most Teslas.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I could never figure out why VW dumped the Jetta Hybrid so quickly, especially after they were busted for Dieselgate. How has your experience with it been?

It's decent. I've liked the car. But I can get why VW ditched it. Because I have the same mindset.

When the car was made, batteries were larger. So the battery pack takes up space out of the trunk. On top of that, real world driving yields me a combined 7L/100 km. On roadtrips we get under 6L/100km. But none of this is close to promised 4.5L/100km. And since it takes premium, the savings aren't that much. It's not a plugin, so I don't get much pure electric mileage. Basically, I have an electric mode to avoid fumes in my condo garage. It's my token courtesy to my neighbours. Servicing at VW is still pricey. And they always want a hybrid tech to do it.

When I can get an affordable EV, we'll be moving on. I don't really want a hybrid anymore, unless it's a plugin. I'd actually rather get a smaller car with better fuel economy that takes regular gas if a plugin isn't available.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

If there is no demand, fine. If they are too expensive, fine. If they can't find mechanics, fine. If there is no real industry to do it, fine. None of those issues, however, changes the fact that the rebates should still apply. If only 100 people in the country decide to do it, they should still get the rebate ....

Governments don't design programs for 100 people. It would cost them more to administer than the benefits would deliver.

Also, you don't even hear industry asking for such subsidies.

[urbandreamer]

Why would I want to convert my ICE car to electric? I think gas powered cars will continue to exist for the next 100 years.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Why would I want to convert my ICE car to electric? I think gas powered cars will continue to exist for the next 100 years.

Yes. But there won't be many gas stations.....

This is what Norway looks like with just 20% of cars on the road having a plug:

• Video Link

Closer to home, Manhattan now has 11x as many charging sites as gas stations, with less than 30 gas stations for a population of over 1.6M.

I expect a lot of people are really going to be surprised by how quickly gas stations start disappearing as EV adoption ramps. Especially given how many more car owners can charge at home or work in North America. Though we're probably a full decade away from Norway kind of numbers. I fully expect, in my lifetime (I'm in my early 40s) to see gas drivers have range anxiety on some trips.