Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[Metro-One]

Actually cars were pretty cheap to purchase in Japan (from what I saw and bought) and the funny truth is a few weeks ago, gas was actually cheaper in Osaka than it is in Metro Vancouver.

So those old staple arguments are starting to disappear.

Cars are actually pretty expensive in Canada compared to many countries, hence why so many people now go south to buy them and pay the import costs.

And also, having tolls on our expressways would make it much more akin to European or Japanese car culture.

As many know, I honestly wished they built the SFPR as a full freeway, buuuut made it a tolled freeway (per km travelled) with exemptions for industrial and commercial traffic.

[jsbertram]

It seems some people in the CoV planning department don't know about this project.
I was looking at the PDFs released during the recent hearings for the arena rental towers, and there are a few pages showing that the proposed realignment of Pacific Blvd and the new intersection of the Georgia connector with Pacific won't interfere with the south rental tower.

However, these PDFs are also showing the proposed ROW for the Downtown Streetcar (Phase II) running along the south edge of the current Pacific Blvd between Quebec St and BC Place. It seems someone has forgotten that the streetcar ROW has already been reserved (at least on paper), and this will cut right through the new & enlarged parks they are trying to create by removing the viaducts.


hmmmmm....

How much of the Downtown Streetcar could be built by not tearing down useful infrastructure (the viaducts) & spending the $100 million on a new Tram / Streetcar / LRT line between Granville Island and Downtown?

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Actually cars were pretty cheap to purchase in Japan (from what I saw and bought) and the funny truth is a few weeks ago, gas was actually cheaper in Osaka than it is in Metro Vancouver.

but did you drive it within metro osaka regularly? did you have to find parking?

i've been to japan, but never operated a vehicle there. a car would be helpful for drving large distances through rural areas, but i would still think that operating a private vehicle within a japanese metropolitain area would be prohibative for both time and money costs.

[trofirhen]

... imagine somewhere in the desert, beside a pool of poison water; a dead cow skull looks at you from hollow eye sockets and says .... "you'll be sorrrryyyy ...." (I couldn't find a dead cow skull smilie, so I wrote it up)

Seriously, with the city growing, the traffic flow in-and-out ever increasing, the removal of the viaducts, and NOT replacing them with another, possibly below-grade or tunnelled express route ..... is mad, rustic, stupid, shortsighted, unrealistic, and not worthy of a booming young metropolis, which Vancouver is.

As far as it costing too much, compare it with the Seatlle project of putting Alaskan Way in a tunnel.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

but did you drive it within metro osaka regularly? did you have to find parking?

i've been to japan, but never operated a vehicle there. a car would be helpful for drving large distances through rural areas, but i would still think that operating a private vehicle within a japanese metropolitain area would be prohibative for both time and money costs.

I drove downtown mostly on the weekends when I was there, and yes of course for my cross country trips.

The funny thing is driving through Osaka, a metro area of 22 million, was more often then not more pleasant and faster than driving through Vancouver proper. My friends from Japan are actually often amazed at how slow driving is in Vancouver (and how many jams there are).

Parking rates were not the best (thats for sure) but like anywhere when you get savy enough you can always find the deal spots, even if you have to walk a block or two after.

[logan5]

This new alignment of Pacific connected to Georgia St. is an ideal route for a tram running from, let's say Mt. Pleasant, down Main or a widened Quebec St., along Pacific, and then up onto Georgia St. (5% grade not a problem for trams).

Georgia St. runs right through the heart of downtown and leads right to Stanley Park. It is also a very wide street that could accommodate a tram line.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by logan5

This new alignment of Pacific connected to Georgia St. is an ideal route for a tram running from, let's say Mt. Pleasant, down Main or a widened Quebec St., along Pacific, and then up onto Georgia St. (5% grade not a problem for trams).

Georgia St. runs right through the heart of downtown and leads right to Stanley Park. It is also a very wide street that could accommodate a tram line.

Perhaps true, but as one of Vancouver's ceremonial streets, a tram line along Georgia would look messy, and ruin the aspect of the street. Anyway, I think a tram line down Robson would be more serviceable, especially given the shopping and restaurants there, not to mention heavier pedestrian traffic and a greater need for local, West End transit.

[DKaz]

A tram line down W. Georgia would disrupt the Sun Run.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by logan5

This new alignment of Pacific connected to Georgia St. is an ideal route for a tram running from, let's say Mt. Pleasant, down Main or a widened Quebec St., along Pacific, and then up onto Georgia St. (5% grade not a problem for trams).

Georgia St. runs right through the heart of downtown and leads right to Stanley Park. It is also a very wide street that could accommodate a tram line.

Not if the Dunsmuir viaduct comes down and a lot of that traffic is forced onto Georgia.

[Track]

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between a tram and an LRT? From what i've read it seems to mostly be an issue of capacity/the spacing of the stops on the line, but others have disagreed.

[WarrenC12]

Want to get to W Georgia? Take the Expo line from Main St to Burrard. Come on people...

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Want to get to W Georgia? Take the Expo line from Main St to Burrard. Come on people...

Or you can the Canada Line to "Vancouver City Centre Station".
Dunno why they couldn't have just named it Georgia / Granville Station, since even tourists have heard of that intersection.

Confused Tourist: "Is Burrard St anywhere near Georgia St on your map?"

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by logan5

This new alignment of Pacific connected to Georgia St. is an ideal route for a tram running from, let's say Mt. Pleasant, down Main or a widened Quebec St., along Pacific, and then up onto Georgia St. (5% grade not a problem for trams).

Georgia St. runs right through the heart of downtown and leads right to Stanley Park. It is also a very wide street that could accommodate a tram line.

Georgia is already gridlock from 8-6 and there's nothing to see for tourists besides Pacific Centre, which is already accessible by two skytrain lines. I'd rather see Robson shut down to car traffic and get the tram.

As a North Vancouverite I already go down either Alberni, Robson or Pender rather than the nightmare that is Georgia.

[biketrouble]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Georgia is already gridlock from 8-6

This is nonsense. I also live in North Van and up until the beginning of this year I used to drive my daughter to daycare in Yaletown 3 days a week at around 9am. Using Georgia Street. Traffic always flowed pretty smooth, could be at Burrard in 10 mins from our place. Didn't always do the return trip but when I did I also used Georgia, normally pretty quick.

If you are fond of sitting in traffic I completely recommend Pender Street westbound from Thurlow in the late afternoon.

BTW, I can't tell you all how much I've been enjoying reading this thread every time there is some news on this project. It's priceless.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Georgia is already gridlock from 8-6 and there's nothing to see for tourists besides Pacific Centre, which is already accessible by two skytrain lines. I'd rather see Robson shut down to car traffic and get the tram.

Wasn't really suggested as a tourist attraction. A lot of people end up getting off the Main/Fraser/Kingsway bus at Main St. station to complete their trip downtown.

A set of tracks along Pacific/Georgia would have the same theoretical capacity as 3 Georgia/Dunsmuir viaducts, and the same capacity as a 30 lane city street.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by logan5

Wasn't really suggested as a tourist attraction. A lot of people end up getting off the Main/Fraser/Kingsway bus at Main St. station to complete their trip downtown.

I don't understand the appeal of trams over buses if we're just talking about locals.

And why wouldn't those people go to Waterfront/Burrard/City Centre on the skytrain rather than Main st station?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Or you can the Canada Line to "Vancouver City Centre Station".
Dunno why they couldn't have just named it Georgia / Granville Station, since even tourists have heard of that intersection.



That has been my thought on this also; exactly !!!

Confused Tourist: "Is Burrard St anywhere near Georgia St on your map?"

Originally Posted by Pinion

Georgia is already gridlock from 8-6 and there's nothing to see for tourists besides Pacific Centre, which is already accessible by two skytrain lines. I'd rather see Robson shut down to car traffic and get the tram.

I don't know if Georgia has achieved true "nightmare" status yet, but it's pretty choked at times, anyway. And as you say, there isn't a lot of stuff for tourists to see there, anyway.

I concur that Robson is far and away a better choice for a tram line.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As a North Vancouverite I already go down either Alberni, Robson or Pender rather than the nightmare that is Georgia.

Originally Posted by logan5

Wasn't really suggested as a tourist attraction. A lot of people end up getting off the Main/Fraser/Kingsway bus at Main St. station to complete their trip downtown.

A set of tracks along Pacific/Georgia would have the same theoretical capacity as 3 Georgia/Dunsmuir viaducts, and the same capacity as a 30 lane city street.

You suggest tram lines along along Georgia and Pacific? Let's try and replicate Bucharest, or what?

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by biketrouble

This is nonsense. I also live in North Van and up until the beginning of this year I used to drive my daughter to daycare in Yaletown 3 days a week at around 9am. Using Georgia Street. Traffic always flowed pretty smooth, could be at Burrard in 10 mins from our place. Didn't always do the return trip but when I did I also used Georgia, normally pretty quick.

If you are fond of sitting in traffic I completely recommend Pender Street westbound from Thurlow in the late afternoon.

I'd agree with this. The bad part is georgia WB in the afternnon rush as the intersection with pender greatly slows WB traffic. WB traffic can reach up to burrard/thurlow at times. EB flows a lot better and the jog to alberni is easier when heading EB.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I'd agree with this. The bad part is georgia WB in the afternnon rush as the intersection with pender greatly slows WB traffic. WB traffic can reach up to burrard/thurlow at times. EB flows a lot better and the jog to alberni is easier when heading EB.

I think this used to be correct, but over the last several weeks, EB traffic on Georgia has been badly backed up pretty much all afternoon, at least in the two blocks I can see from my office (Thurlow to Hornby more or less). I'm not sure if it's the work being done in front of the TD tower or what, but it's been pretty bad.

Actually, IMO, traffic downtown has been surprisingly bad this summer. It usually eases off a bit in the summer months, but Burrard, Hornby and Robson (at least since they blocked off the part between Hornby / Howe) have been terrible.

[Pinion]

Even if we differ on the severity of current traffic jams, it seems like we mostly agree Georgia is not overflowing with extra unused lanes that could be better used by a tram, and that was the point.