Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[WarrenC12]

And make sure I start getting checks from the Skytrain lobby like zwei says I do.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by CLC

Zwei (railforthevalley) 's tactics may have more effect than I previously thought...
Found a blog by a senior Hawaii journalist, who seems to be fooled by what Zwei wrote about the "skytrain myth"
http://ilind.net/

Like he said before, if you tell a lie enough, it becomes an accepted truth.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by deasine

Like he said before, if you tell a lie enough, it becomes an accepted truth.

He knows exactly what he's doing.

[RosstheBoss]

Ya I am from Abbotsford and naturally due to my geographic location have been hoping for rail for the valley for a long time. When i first learned of the group Rail for the Valley I had high hopes that they were going to get something done and help push for a Rail line out to the valley. As a person who knows a decent bit about transportation infrastructure I am becoming increasingly dismayed by Rail for the Valley's tactics. I"m sorry but I find many of their views to both naive and unrealistic. They distort the truths and try to make everything sound like a conspiracy.


I believe that Vancouver does need grade separated LRT, systems like the skytrain are an efficient interurban transportation network. Corridors like the UBC line should be built using skytrain because its advantages in an urban environment are far superior to that of other transportation models. Transportation Systems such as trams do have their place in Metro Vancouver I believe, however this technology should not and cannot be relied upon to form the transportation backbone of a city such as Vancouver.


I believe the best system would be one as follows. For the busiest transportation corridors such as broadway and for high grow areas such as the Tri Cities, skytrain as the primary urban transportation system should be used as the mode of transport for fast the movement of people over medium distances with a medium number of stops in an urban setting. Buses and trams should be used to create dense multi stop routes over a short geographic area. These two systems working together will make up the regional transit of a city.


For region to region travel I believe that high speed heavy rail should be used. This system would connect region to region with very limited stops to improve efficiency. High speed rail south of the Fraser should connect Abbotsford, Langley and Surrey then cross over a new Patullo bridge and have a stop in Burnaby and Vancouver. There should only be one or maybe two stops in each city so that people can switch over to regional transit. The stops in Surrey, Burnaby, and Vancouver would give three points to transfer onto the skytrain for a slower higher stop oriented train. I believe that on the north side of the Fraser the WCE should have its service upgraded by providing it with its own designated high speed track and increased service times with more departures. With the Evergreen line being build the WCE will have a further Eastern terminal where passengers can transfer to the skytrain and regional transit.


Sound far fetched? I think not, I have been to many cities and towns around the world have been frequently impressed by how cities across the world blend different forms of transportation to provide excellent service to the city core and as well service out to the suburbs. One excellent example of this would be Melbourne Australia. Though Melbourne is a very large city it has many suburbs of the same size or smaller then that of Vancouver. By providing rail out to these suburbs, residents who drive everywhere in their local community tend to use transit to make it into downtown Melbourne.


With a system such as this in place, not only would there be a change in the transportation behaviors of the local population but there would be a cultural change as well. Cities such as Abbotsford can use this to become a sustainable suburb, people will be able to leave in a place like Abbotsford and still enjoy the destinations of Vancouver. This may surprise some but I have friends and know many people who only see Vancouver every couple of years, it can be such a hassle to get to Vancouver that many people from Abbotsford just stay away. With a proper transportation network in place, residents from all over the lower mainland will have new options to see the most beautiful city in the world.

[clooless]

Originally Posted by deasine

Like he said before, if you tell a lie enough, it becomes an accepted truth.

Well, here's a great one from that blog:

When we mentioned to friends from Vancouver that Honolulu is modeling its system after the SkyTrain, they had a quick response:

It’s automated. So when it stops, it stops for a long time. And it stops for a long time quite often.

I mean, honestly. What a load of bollocks.

[cabotp]

Ya I am from Abbotsford and naturally due to my geographic location have been hoping for rail for the valley for a long time. When i first learned of the group Rail for the Valley I had high hopes that they were going to get something done and help push for a Rail line out to the valley. As a person who knows a decent bit about transportation infrastructure I am becoming increasingly dismayed by Rail for the Valley's tactics. I"m sorry but I find many of their views to both naive and unrealistic. They distort the truths and try to make everything sound like a conspiracy.


I believe that Vancouver does need grade separated LRT, systems like the skytrain are an efficient interurban transportation network. Corridors like the UBC line should be built using skytrain because its advantages in an urban environment are far superior to that of other transportation models. Transportation Systems such as trams do have their place in Metro Vancouver I believe, however this technology should not and cannot be relied upon to form the transportation backbone of a city such as Vancouver.


I believe the best system would be one as follows. For the busiest transportation corridors such as broadway and for high grow areas such as the Tri Cities, skytrain as the primary urban transportation system should be used as the mode of transport for fast the movement of people over medium distances with a medium number of stops in an urban setting. Buses and trams should be used to create dense multi stop routes over a short geographic area. These two systems working together will make up the regional transit of a city.


For region to region travel I believe that high speed heavy rail should be used. This system would connect region to region with very limited stops to improve efficiency. High speed rail south of the Fraser should connect Abbotsford, Langley and Surrey then cross over a new Patullo bridge and have a stop in Burnaby and Vancouver. There should only be one or maybe two stops in each city so that people can switch over to regional transit. The stops in Surrey, Burnaby, and Vancouver would give three points to transfer onto the skytrain for a slower higher stop oriented train. I believe that on the north side of the Fraser the WCE should have its service upgraded by providing it with its own designated high speed track and increased service times with more departures. With the Evergreen line being build the WCE will have a further Eastern terminal where passengers can transfer to the skytrain and regional transit.


Sound far fetched? I think not, I have been to many cities and towns around the world have been frequently impressed by how cities across the world blend different forms of transportation to provide excellent service to the city core and as well service out to the suburbs. One excellent example of this would be Melbourne Australia. Though Melbourne is a very large city it has many suburbs of the same size or smaller then that of Vancouver. By providing rail out to these suburbs, residents who drive everywhere in their local community tend to use transit to make it into downtown Melbourne.


With a system such as this in place, not only would there be a change in the transportation behaviors of the local population but there would be a cultural change as well. Cities such as Abbotsford can use this to become a sustainable suburb, people will be able to leave in a place like Abbotsford and still enjoy the destinations of Vancouver. This may surprise some but I have friends and know many people who only see Vancouver every couple of years, it can be such a hassle to get to Vancouver that many people from Abbotsford just stay away. With a proper transportation network in place, residents from all over the lower mainland will have new options to see the most beautiful city in the world.

Well thought out and pretty much what I feel needs to be done as well. Really it comes down to have multiple layers of transit.

Commuter rail for the long trips from places like Mission, Abby, and Chilliwack.
Sky train for the higher density urban areas.
LRT at-grade for the not so dense corridors that are getting busy but not busy enough warrant Sky Train
And of course buses and what not.

Really the only thing stopping all this is well money

I think a lot of people out in Mission and probably even Abbotsford were quite thrilled to be able to take the West Coast Express and come back later on at night.

[CLC]

One excellent example of this would be Melbourne Australia. Though Melbourne is a very large city it has many suburbs of the same size or smaller then that of Vancouver. By providing rail out to these suburbs, residents who drive everywhere in their local community tend to use transit to make it into downtown Melbourne.

Melbourne does have a large tram system, and extensive rail system to suburbs. But from what I heard it is far from being excellence, perhaps it is different if you view it as tourist point of view or being a local resident there. Melbourne transit system was described as "chaos" from someone lived there told me, and last year Connex Melbourne and former operator of Yarra Trams were dumped

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by mr.x

He knows exactly what he's doing.

And now Zwei will start saying "as discussed by the respected blogger ...", giving unsuspecting readers (who are unwilling to do their own fact-checking) the impression they are authorities on why LRT & Streetcars are superior to ALRT "SkyTrain".

[RosstheBoss]

Originally Posted by CLC

Melbourne does have a large tram system, and extensive rail system to suburbs. But from what I heard it is far from being excellence, perhaps it is different if you view it as tourist point of view or being a local resident there. Melbourne transit system was described as "chaos" from someone lived there told me, and last year Connex Melbourne and former operator of Yarra Trams were dumped

I guess its just point of view, I have been on many transit systems around the world and found Melbourne's to be one of the best. My family on my moms side is originally from there and I still have relatives there. Really when compared to many North American transit systems it is like a masterpiece. Melbourne is much larger than Vancouver, so naturally it will have some chaos to it, and probably does need improvements here and there but as a tourist and transit enthusiast i must say what a system.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by RosstheBoss

I guess its just point of view, I have been on many transit systems around the world and found Melbourne's to be one of the best. My family on my moms side is originally from there and I still have relatives there. Really when compared to many North American transit systems it is like a masterpiece. Melbourne is much larger than Vancouver, so naturally it will have some chaos to it, and probably does need improvements here and there but as a tourist and transit enthusiast i must say what a system.

A lot of what people think of transit in a city depends on where they lived in that city.

Example ask anyone who lives out in Surrey and they would probably say transit is not all that great. And so they would move away and chances are when someone asked what transit was like they would say it sucked.

Now someone who lives in Vancouver. Most likely would have a more favourable review.

So it really comes to where people lived in a city and where they had to commute.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

And now Zwei will start saying "as discussed by the respected blogger ...", giving unsuspecting readers (who are unwilling to do their own fact-checking) the impression they are authorities on why LRT & Streetcars are superior to ALRT "SkyTrain".

Personally, I'd love to go after him and respond to the lies in each of his posts...and I know many of you do and I really do thank you for that. But it's incredibly frustrating - the guy has no job - and he's like a virus on the internet and in the print media that simply can't be killed no matter what you do. Responding to his asinine posts is needed so that folks that come across his garbage are given a much more balanced, sane, factually and logically correct alternative viewpoint...but you read his posts and you'd wish you could reach over into your monitor screen and strangle him on the other side.

How could someone be so incredibly selfish and irresponsible?

[tybuilding]

I don't think an LRT system would physically fit on Broadway. Here are the numbers I measured from Calgary with Google Earth.

Two tracks together - Outside track to outside track - 5.9m
Right of way - 1 Track - 4.1m
Track and Station Platform - 8.3m
Track, Station and Sidewalk outside of station - 10.3m

Broadway at Alder:

Sidewalk 2.3m
Bus / Parking Land 4.6m
Centre Lane 3.2m
Middle Lane 3.0 m


So if you wanted a sidewalk, station platform and a designated rightaway you would have this configuration:

Sidewalk / Platform / Track / Single Eastbound Lane / Single Westbound Lane / Track / Platform / Sidewalk.

So where there are stations there could be single lanes in either direction
Where there are no stations you could have 2 lanes.

There would also never be any parking anymore!

[GeeCee]

I saw a crappy old hatchback with a Rail For The Valley bumper sticker on it today around BCIT and I got pretty angry for a few moments.. zwwwwweeeeeeeiiiiii

[mrjauk]

I wouldn't get too upset at ole zwei. He may be able to influence the uninitiated, but the people who are/will be responsible for making transit decisions in this region understand what a colossal waste of money a surface-LRT along Broadway would be.

[Canadian Mind]

Which is why we aren't going for it.

Though it's a shame that some life-less individual is influencing policy decisions in far off lands he has no right to have influence in.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Which is why we aren't going for it.

Though it's a shame that some life-less individual is influencing policy decisions in far off lands he has no right to have influence in.

If they are stupid enough to listen to him without checking all the facts.

Well they deserve what they get.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by clooless

Well, here's a great one from that blog:



I mean, honestly. What a load of bollocks.

But it does stop. Between 2am and 5am. That's a long time, isn't it?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

I don't think an LRT system would physically fit on Broadway. Here are the numbers I measured from Calgary with Google Earth.

Two tracks together - Outside track to outside track - 5.9m
Right of way - 1 Track - 4.1m
Track and Station Platform - 8.3m
Track, Station and Sidewalk outside of station - 10.3m

Broadway at Alder:

Sidewalk 2.3m
Bus / Parking Land 4.6m
Centre Lane 3.2m
Middle Lane 3.0 m


So if you wanted a sidewalk, station platform and a designated rightaway you would have this configuration:

Sidewalk / Platform / Track / Single Eastbound Lane / Single Westbound Lane / Track / Platform / Sidewalk.

So where there are stations there could be single lanes in either direction
Where there are no stations you could have 2 lanes.

There would also never be any parking anymore!

And now you've figured out why Calgary converted 7th Ave downtown to a transit-only roadway when LRT was built. Only LRT drivers and transit bus drivers are allowed to be on 7th Ave between 10th St West and 4th St East. This doesn't stop the occasional confused out-of-towner, but there are no other vehicles allowed on 7th Ave.

There are no parking meters (obviously) on 7th Ave, so buses can run in the curb lane - except when they have to use the LRT lane to pass LRT station platforms. I haven't heard of a transit bus vs. LRT collision, but a collision of LRT vs. vehicles crossing the tracks against the traffic lights are almost a weekly occurrence - often enough that someone has to die before the papers report on an LRT collision.

The rest of the LRT tracks are generally isolated from nearby roads by having the LRT ROW beside a road, or within the median between traffic roadways of a freeway or highway.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

I don't think an LRT system would physically fit on Broadway. Here are the numbers I measured from Calgary with Google Earth.

Two tracks together - Outside track to outside track - 5.9m
Right of way - 1 Track - 4.1m
Track and Station Platform - 8.3m
Track, Station and Sidewalk outside of station - 10.3m

Broadway at Alder:

Sidewalk 2.3m
Bus / Parking Land 4.6m
Centre Lane 3.2m
Middle Lane 3.0 m


So if you wanted a sidewalk, station platform and a designated rightaway you would have this configuration:

Sidewalk / Platform / Track / Single Eastbound Lane / Single Westbound Lane / Track / Platform / Sidewalk.

So where there are stations there could be single lanes in either direction
Where there are no stations you could have 2 lanes.

There would also never be any parking anymore!

A missing piece of the Streetcar /Tram /LRT on Broadway puzzle is that the minor cross-streets would have to be blocked from making left-turns to or from Broadway. Major cross streets would need left-turn bays with advance-turn signals for vehicles leaving Broadway to prevent left-turning traffic from getting smacked by the driving-straight-through Streetcar /Tram /LRT.

A simple example: left-turn bays at Broadway / Oak so Broadway traffic can turn East-to-North or West-to-South. These left-turn bays are already there, but will have to be relocated further away from the Broadway centre line because the rail tracks will be using the two inside lanes exclusively. You can't have a train being blocked by someone waiting to make a left turn.

Same left-turn bays at Broadway / Cambie and Broadway / Main for East-to-North or West-to-South left-turning traffic.

All of the minor streets that cross Broadway (Laurel, Willow, Heather, Ash, Alberta, Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario) will have to be made right-turn only intersections because you can't have traffic making uncontrolled left turns in front of the trains when entering or leaving Broadway.

Some minor streets may have to be cut off from Broadway by building a coul-de-sac.

Yukon and Quebec may allow left turns onto Broadway, but left turns leaving Broadway may be disallowed.

Now repeat this for every intersection all the way west to UBC and east to Glen Dr (VCC) - some streets get cut off from Broadway with cul-de-sacs, some get right turn only restrictions and some get left-turn bays with advance lights.

Oh yes -- how do you herd pedestrians safely across the tracks at popular intersections like Willow and Heather (Vancouver General Hospital & related medical buildings are nearby). Does a sweet elderly lady with a walker get to push the crosswalk button and block the Streetcar /Tram /LRT so she can make it to her doctor's appointment on time?

[CLC]

^ Great summary of inconvenience that LRT will bring to Broadway. Again, you get what you paid for. I always say LRT has three characteristics: slow, safety concerns, inconvenience. Casuing inconvenience to drivers (likely means extra time to drive to the destination) may be a good thing though, they may choose to take the tram next time