[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I think you're correct. Why would Harper give one thin dime to HRM now? We went orange/red (how foolish that was!!) and none of his candidates came close to winning. I have every expectation he will pay us back for our actions by spending those dollars in areas that helped him gain a majority, not in an area that pokes him in the eye every chance it gets.

Yes, how dare people vote their conscience and not be cynical for the sake of getting money out of Ottawa.

'Cuase, you know, I really want to vote for someone that's going to hold fair and adequate funding for my city hostage for the sake of votes.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I think you're correct. Why would Harper give one thin dime to HRM now? We went orange/red (how foolish that was!!) and none of his candidates came close to winning. I have every expectation he will pay us back for our actions by spending those dollars in areas that helped him gain a majority, not in an area that pokes him in the eye every chance it gets.

I agree with you to a point, but then I look at other areas who have recently recieved CC funding such as Charlottetown who hasn't voted Conservative in the last few decades or Ottawa CC in a NDP strong hold of Ottawa Centre.

[reddog794]

Ah, the old vinegar/honey argument.

You would think a clever politician would send money into areas that don't see eye to eye with you. Change in tactics I know, but with the change in the house...

I do have to agree with the Harper glasses stopping at Montreal.

However, maybe now though, Lepreau might get finished, and the most troubled economy won't be even more cash strapped.

The convension centre was already in the federal fish bowl for funding... Wasn't it?

[resetcbu1]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

Why? The Tories don't need to answer to ridings of other parties anymore. The only reason they've been dangling the carrot about funding this or the stadium is because they weren't sure if they were going to need NDP/Liberal favour after the election, now they're free to give us the giant middle finger for the next four years.

Well to start, if the conservatives/harper hold true to what they hyped all election then their main focus is to continue to grow the economy, and lead the economic growth among developed nations, then why woild he want to limit growth to one side of the nation rather than see the whole country flourish? Also why would the west want us to struggle so they can pay out more in equalization payments? I live in calgary and I highly doubt that anyone here would like to see atlantic Canada suffer so they can send more of their oil revenue eastward, makes no sense .... Finally it seems highly unlikely that the government is gonna act like a spoiled child and cry about he votes they received here , yes more seats means more voice but they are NOT simply say "well you never voted conservative ......so no".

So let's wait see what happens, like a few people on here mentioned, Mr McKay has alot of pull and I wouldn't be supprised if we get more than we expect, contrary to what alot of people think in HRM the city is well respected nationally and internationally and will not be over looked based on votes.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I think you're correct. Why would Harper give one thin dime to HRM now? We went orange/red (how foolish that was!!) and none of his candidates came close to winning. I have every expectation he will pay us back for our actions by spending those dollars in areas that helped him gain a majority, not in an area that pokes him in the eye every chance it gets.

My apologies for awakening the crabby soulless beast...

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It is also interesting that Peter MacKay showed support for the convention centre prior to the election and he easily won his riding (there was no overwhelming backlash from his rural constituents).

Unfortunately there's a growing trend of ridings simply going through the motions and voting in representatives under party affiliations regardless of what they may or may not support. See Calgary, where many Tories never bothered to even show up to campaign for their own ridings. I would fully expect people further afield to resume their regularly scheduled complaints about Halifax development.

In any case let's face it, Atlantic Canada is pretty low priority on the list federally speaking to begin with. If the Tories are going to dedicate efforts towards electoral momentum anywhere it's going to be Southern Ontario, not Atlantic Canada.

[fenwick16]

I personally doubt that the number of seats won in the Halifax area will influence the decision on the Nova Centre. The Conservatives know that they will have to scratch and claw to get enough seats in future elections to win a majority (I don't think that they will be anxious to return to a minority government in future elections). I think the last thing that the Conservatives will do is purposely slight communities, especially after the Newfoundland ABC (Anything But Conservative) launched by Danny Williams in 2008.

It is also interesting that Peter MacKay showed support for the convention centre prior to the election and he easily won his riding (there was no overwhelming backlash from his rural constituents).

Any day now, Rank Inc. should be informing the NDP on whether they can maintain the price on the convention centre.

PS: According to the allnovascotia.com, Nova Scotia showed a significant increase in votes for the Conservatives - I am sure they would like to keep the momentum going over the next 4 years before the next election.

[halifaxboyns]

Now that I'm back in the conservative heartland - I wanted to throw my 2 cents into the mix.

While I think the NDP wins in Halifax are going to probably be a negative (lets face it, Meghan Leslie would torpoedo this project if she could) I think fenwick is onto something. There was an increase in conservative votes; even in the city. Just because they got a majority this team gives no assurance of one in the next election. As my mom likes to say: "They have 4 years to really screw it up"...and they could. Something tells me they will start cherry picking ridings to support projects in, where they think they could actually start getting more support and you will see that over the next few years.

It also helps that Peter McKay is back in - but I worry that he may just simply say either the CC or the stadium and not both.

[hfxtradesman]

As of now the CC is under price review and is most likely going to go up. The other news is that there is a 6 month delay on a decision. So once again we will have to wait till sometime Oct. ish, before we may hear anything. I hope sooner than later.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfxtradesman

As of now the CC is under price review and is most likely going to go up. The other news is that there is a 6 month delay on a decision. So once again we will have to wait till sometime Oct. ish, before we may hear anything. I hope sooner than later.

Is the delay by the federal government? Or is it by Rank Inc. to secure financing?

[hfxtradesman]

It would be the financing end of things. As it comes back to the Feds one way or another.

[fenwick16]

I would also wonder if Rank Inc. can secure financing. Since it is a lease agreement with no payment until 2015 by the municipality or province, and even if the federal government agrees, the federal government's portion wouldn't be due until 2015 ($47 million dollars). So Rank Inc. will be required to find interim financing to finance all of the construction cost prior to completion. If the final cost is really $500 million then that will be a large chunk of money required with high vacancy rates downtown. (I would like to see this proceed, but with all the delays I am starting to wonder if it is possible even if the federal government decides to support it).

[someone123]

If the government proves willing to fork over tens of millions I'm sure Rank will figure something out.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I would also wonder if Rank Inc. can secure financing. Since it is a lease agreement with no payment until 2015 by the municipality or province, and even if the federal government agrees, the federal government's portion wouldn't be due until 2015 ($47 million dollars). So Rank Inc. will be required to find interim financing to finance all of the construction cost prior to completion. If the final cost is really $500 million then that will be a large chunk of money required with high vacancy rates downtown. (I would like to see this proceed, but with all the delays I am starting to wonder if it is possible even if the federal government decides to support it).

Simple, they would probably change the plans for the office to be coverted fully to residential rental of which they could much easier get financing for.

Now the only issues with that is the city has based its support of the project provinding tax revenue from the commercial, not residential which is significantly less. I don't know if there is set guidelines to how much of either there can be. I would hope council made it a requirement of their support.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by sdm

Simple, they would probably change the plans for the office to be coverted fully to residential rental of which they could much easier get financing for.

Now the only issues with that is the city has based its support of the project provinding tax revenue from the commercial, not residential which is significantly less. I don't know if there is set guidelines to how much of either there can be. I would hope council made it a requirement of their support.

It may be less, but being so centrally located - I wonder if it would still fetch a good portion of what would be brought in with commercial? I'm just guessing - but they might still support the project on the idea of at least we're still getting something for it?

Good point and good question though...should be interesting.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by sdm

Simple, they would probably change the plans for the office to be coverted fully to residential rental of which they could much easier get financing for.

Now the only issues with that is the city has based its support of the project provinding tax revenue from the commercial, not residential which is significantly less. I don't know if there is set guidelines to how much of either there can be. I would hope council made it a requirement of their support.

This is a good point. I would much rather see the office portion of the Nova Centre become residential. I guess the property tax would probably be less, however, for the sake of the downtown core I think the city should be happy to see residential development downtown. Eventually residential development should lead to more retail downtown and maybe even more commercial will eventually be generated. Since it should be cheaper to service residential development in the downtown core than the suburbs, it could still turn out to be tax positive.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is a good point. I would much rather see the office portion of the Nova Centre become residential. I guess the property tax would probably be less, however, for the sake of the downtown core I think the city should be happy to see residential development downtown. Eventually residential development should lead to more retail downtown and maybe even more commercial will eventually be generated. Since it should be cheaper to service residential development in the downtown core than the suburbs, it could still turn out to be tax positive.

If this were to happen; HRM council would need to make a decision on how much it would be worth to invest in the project going forward, if it meant that the investment wouldn't be recovered as fast by property taxes.

While I agree with you fenwick and SDM has made the point in many other posts that office demand in the core is pretty much non-existant (so it makes sense to convert to residential), I'm really concerned that this change could potentially sink the project. I think a lot of this had to do with the taxes that would come in -if that number drops significantly, I think attitudes on council will change.

[Empire]

Halifax has a very strong corporate presence downtown for a city its size. The corporate downtown adds to the energy of this city. To slowly convert existing commercial office space to residential/hotel or build residential in prime commercial space could weaken the corporate power centre. Unfortunately, this shift is happening due to the construction of peripheral commercial developments and that is fair ball. If a concentrated effort is made to convert vacated commercial space to residential the problem will be escalated. I would much prefer to see corporate tax breaks for downtown commercial space to keep them afloat than have the commercial space eroded, if in fact the errosion can be stopped at all. New developments such as the Alexander and the Trinity would support the commercial space in the centre core if they could ever get off the ground.

If buildings such as Founders Square and Aliant Centre are converted to hotel or condominium space then Halifax will have lost a dynamic edge.

[someone123]

The root problem is a lack of demand for offices in the core. I don't think residential plays into this very much; if anything, increased residential makes the core more attractive for workers and therefore businesses.

Holding back residential development in the hopes of promoting office would just hurt the downtown.

[Waye Mason]

It was explained to me again this week that commercial is renting for 18-21 psf in the existing buildings, which is low, and running at a 10% vacancy, which is ok for churn.

But, new commercial needs to be up around 26 psf to pay for the build. So, we have a gap. You need 40% leased at $26psf (or more) to be able to secure financing.

More I talk to real estate and developer guys about downtown, the more it becomes clear, the issue is demand. More supply can't be built unless there is more higher value demand.

The economy went in the crapper in 2008, the promise of insurance from Bermuda and banks and stuff went away, and the economy is just starting to heat up, maybe.

So, how do you get there? The tax issue real, but to me, every city has significantly higher taxes for commercial, and Canadian cities primarily use property tax, so that is not the only issue, it can't be. I think I would like to HRM make downtown a priority for entertainment (Legacy Centre, revamped Metro Centre) and that all the fixtures, streets, transport, should be top notch.

All the plans and renovations and streetscapes those turkeys at city hall have been talking about need to get done, pronto. The more attractive downtown is, the better chance of attracting new business and slowly driving up rent. It has to be a destination, a desired location, something that really makes people happy to pay that rent. The city is not playing its part in doing that.

[fenwick16]

I don't think that people are thinking about converting existing commercial space, such as Founders Square, to residential. On the other hand, the Nova Centre is just in the preliminary planning stage and residential has already been proposed as part of the mix along with commercial space by Joe Ramia.

The problem with having mainly commercial (office) space downtown is that office workers go home after work and in many cities the downtown core is dead at night. Toronto has been successful in attracting condo towers in the downtown core and I feel that it helps to make Toronto a more vibrant city, even at night. Having mixed-use towers is an option that is becoming popular in cities across North America. It is a possibility that might make such developments as the International Place viable, otherwise, such developments might never go ahead.

I like the idea of reducing the commercial tax rate downtown and shifting some of the burden to the suburbs.