The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Metro-One]

The study phase keeps humming along, slowly narrowing down towards the only outcome that anyone with half a brain and some mass transit sense knows is the proper choice, and that is an extension of the M-Line skytrain in the form of a subway.

Subway is in fact the only option the city of Vancouver is willing to endorse (one of the only few good decisions this city council has made).

[ccw219]

^ I must be missing half a brain

Not that a subway wouldn't be lovely, but given the options plus the need for not only the Evergreen, but major LRT work in Surrey (there's also that cool streetcar proposal from the Olympic Village to the West End), I just don't see it. Also, if you think residents got upset about how many businesses lost their shirts on Granville Street, wait until you try to touch Kitsilano.

In summation, it's not only politically unfeasible, but financially as well with other needs present in Coquitlam, Surrey and Langley. There ARE other options besides going underground here.

[Chadillaccc]

The Evergreen Line is already well underway, that's not an issue. Only a small part of Granville was dug up for the Canada Line, the rest was Cambie, even worse. The major LRT work in Surrey isn't happening yet, and the UBC Line is much more important than that. Subway is the only way to do this line.

[ccw219]

^ Agree on all counts, except the assumption of underground. And thanks for bringing up Cambie. Construction was brutal there as well.

I guess my point is that the Evergreen costs money, Surrey/Langley LRT costs money. I would also look to the Evergreen as a cautionary tale for those sure that the UBC line would come first. We all know that the Broadway corridor carries many more passengers than the Evergreen will, and yet it is under construction.

A subway here is ridiculously expensive and a huge political challenge given the neighborhood. Are we so certain that underground is the only way to go? Simply suggesting that LRT is a real option here.

[LeftCoaster]

LRT is a completely unfeasible option from a logistical standpoint. The street grid is too narrow realistically run a streetcar down at any sort of frequency or capacity. It would be a nightmare.

Forget 2 years of construction hassle, an LRT would be a perpetual nightmare. I don't know if you lived in Vancouver during the Canada line construction but it wasn't a nightmare, it was a vocal minorty of shop owners who were not properly compensated. Those involved have learned from that mistake and would not make it again. Not to mention that any subway line wouldn't run down Broadway since it is a major sewer/utilities trunk. It would be offset to 10th most likely, thereby effecting far fewer businesses.

LRT would be great for Surrey, SW marine etc... but Broadway just has too much traffic and cross streets for it to be a reasonable alternative to a subway. It wouldn't be any faster than the current busses and would only address the capacity issue.

Why half ass something that clearly needs a full metro solution?

[Metro-One]

Exactly, hence anyone with half a brain involved in this issue knows this.

Other problems include how narrow Broadway is. Not only would street side parking be lost, but also sidewalk space wold be severely restricted (not a good option for a street with increasing pedestrian traffic), nearly all of the LRT stations would have to be staggered, and 90% of intersections would have left turn restrictions! = traffic nightmare / slow mass transit / restricted pedestrian flow / unsafe conditions for all!

In fact some new office proposals are already being designed with future SUBWAY station connections, this is how clear the writing is on the bathroom wall regarding this corridor.

There are other issues as well, such as creating an unnecessary technology transfer (from the M skytrain line to an LRT) and the need to build an entirely new OMC & storage facility along a corridor with some of Canada's most expensive real-estate.

[red-paladin]

I never understood where an LRT OMC could be located on the Broadway corridor. To me that was always going to make it impossible.

[Chadillaccc]

Agreed with absolutely everything said by Metro One and LeftCoaster. It's friggin Broadway. The difference between putting 3 minute frequency 4-car streetcar down an imperitively important street, and putting a 3 minute frequency subway under an imperitively important street are monumentally different. There isn't even any way that the trains could get a right-of-way. If LRT was the only option, there would be no point in ever even building it since it would only create more problems than it could possibly solve.

[ccw219]

Understood. There are obvious traffic concerns with LRT. I find the "impossible" claims interesting because Translink has identified 2 (3 if you include partial tunnelling in Fairview) LRT proposals as their final options - underground Skytrain as the other. Considering that over 150 alternatives were considered, I would imagine that it has its logistical merit. I'm just explaining the logical process of someone who doesn't work in engineering or planning.

My point is that we're looking at an up to almost a $2 billion cost differential coupled with extremely politically active, wealthy neighbourhoods. I did live in Vancouver during the Canada Line construction and I experienced much more than a vocal minority of shop-owners. Granville Island became a dust-bowl. The commercial makeup of both streets were permanently altered with many independent retailers losing out. Factions of the corridor communities will fight this with everything they can.

Also, I don't fully understand how insinuating that I only have half of a brain contributes to the discussion at all but I digress... My opinion is simply that LRT is still considered an option - one that budgets and political concerns will look at favorably. IF it happens to win the oncoming money-battle with Surrey and Langley.

[ccw219]

http://www.translink.ca/~/media/document...tudy_alternatives_analysis_findings.ashx

I found this helpful.

[Steveston]

I think all are in agreement that GRADE-SEPARATION is the key on the BWay Line. Surface LRT doesn't make sense -- speed is a key factor, and an at-grade line on Broadway would be slow, thus reducing its attractiveness, and failing to generate the necessary ridership.

The problems on Cambie occurred because of the decision to use cut-and-cover instead of a boring machine. Had they used the latter, the holes in the ground would have occurred only where the stations are located (which is why Granville was a mess, even though the tunnel borer was used there).

Complaints from Broadway merchants during construction would be reduced by using the mole, but would likely be minimized by using an elevated guideway. But then, the complaints from the residents would be deafening (perhaps even bringing out another "creme de la creme" argument).

[Metro-One]

A surface LRT option would cause far more disruption to Broadway than a bored subway. With an LRT the entire street would have to be dug up, major utilities would have to be relocated, sidewalks reduced, every intersection re-configured, etc...

The LRT options (especially the ones that include no subway portion) are essentially a dog and pony show to please the LRT advocates that all options are being looked at. This study phase is as much of a farce as the city of Vancouver's study phase of what to do with the viaducts and all the "options" they presented.

I feel that the only choice that makes sense is to extend the M-line as subway at least as far as Granville at a bare minimum.

[Innsertnamehere]

All I care about is it being grade separated. That is what really drives ridership, and that is what really helps get people around quickly.


good to finally see some Vancouver discussion in the Canada section as well

[logan5]

Sorry to pile on here, but another problem with LRT down Broadway is the issue of station spacing. If you have station spacing at 800 - 1000 metres, that means you have to maintain local trolley service, which would use up one of the two remaining traffic lanes. There's no room for buses to pull away from traffic when at a bus stop, so the bus is going to block a lane of traffic every time it makes a stop every 200 metres or so. The solution to that problem would be to make LRT stops every 400 metres, but then the average speed is reduced and you end up with a slightly better service at a huge cost.

I would definitely love to see LRT running down 41st from UBC to Metrotown. Lots of room there.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

All I care about is it being grade separated. That is what really drives ridership, and that is what really helps get people around quickly.


good to finally see some Vancouver discussion in the Canada section as well

haha I know man! It seems almost every time Vancouver is mentioned here, it's either a Vancouverite or former Vancouverite praising the city, and every other d-bag that's never been there shitting on it.

[Chadillaccc]

Tuscany Station - Opening fall 2014

[kwoldtimer]

Folks in Kitchener checking out the model Bombardier Flexity train (the "Ion"), on display in front of Region of Waterloo HQ this past Saturday. This is the same model used for the Metrolinx display.

[Ramako]

I made this map to reflect what the TTC Subway/LRT map could look like around 2020 or so. It includes the extension of the YUS line to Vaughan and the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, in blue, which are both under construction. The grey line is the Finch West LRT and the orange line is the Sheppard East LRT, which are both approved and funded. I haven't included stations for them because they haven't been determined yet. I've also replaced the Scarborough RT with an extension of the Bloor-Danforth line, as that proposal seems to be quickly gaining traction at the municipal and provincial levels. Things seem to change quickly and often when it comes to plans for Toronto transit, so what we get will probably end up looking different than this map, but it's still informative.

[Chadillaccc]

Looks excellent! If only they would extend the Sheppard Line west a bit! Looks great for Toronto though. The Downtown Relief Line should add a lot to that as well once it is approved.

[Beedok]

Wish that the Eglinton LRT and Pearson-Union line had a transit station though.