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  #2401  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 7:35 AM
mojiferous mojiferous is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Hill View Post
I’m really terrified this thing will pass. I’m betting it will. These days people vote with their hearts – not their brains. How often do you actually spend time in the Front Range, TakeFive? Have you actually felt/experienced the anti-growth hysteria that’s prevalent here?
I think this will be a lot harder to pass than it seems - there will be organized opposition that will probably be able to raise money for advertising and outreach, while he'll likely have to rely mostly on individual donors. The opposition would probably have support from most politicians too, since very few of them would risk alienating any of those pro-growth donors - which will be just about every company of decent size that has concerns about hiring or cost of living as a function of salary would likely contribute to an anti-campaign and every construction-related union, etc.

And remember that there are a decent number of Republican and Libertarian voters here, and you can easily paint this as an anti-business/rights-restricting measure similar to what the commies up in Boulder are doing. Tell El Paso and Douglas counties that this would mean that the liberals in Boulder and Denver are limiting their property rights...

And for all the liberals you just have to make it clear that restricting housing will raise housing costs and increase inequality. The builders should make it painfully clear that if they could only build ½ of what they built this year that ALL they would build was high-end luxury housing to make the most money off a limited pipeline. Find a brave soul willing to say that if their company can only pull permits for 100 units instead of 200 that they definitely wouldn't build anything under $500,000.

And the attorneys on the board can help here: but the initiative https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/ele...66Results.html states that growth is limited to 1% annually, but doesn't explicitly state that this is 1% of each county's current housing stock, just that it limits the growth to 1%. Nor does it spell out enforcement - Does this mean that Denver could interpret this as 1% of the state's total and if someone complained about them issuing 23,000 permits claim ignorance? If no one is watching and there are no punishments are laid out, what happens if Denver issues 1.5%? or 10%? or 1.01%? Does it round up or down?
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  #2402  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 12:02 PM
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Speaking of anti-growth hysteria – I wonder – is the same thing taking place in Austin? Seattle? If not, why not? What’s wrong with Colorado?
It is definitely happening in Austin. The city is not offering Amazon any incentives for HQ2, and there is opposition to it being here. The owner of the Columbus Crew is trying to hand a MLS franchise to the city and will even privately fund the stadium construction. But the city council has said no to building a stadium on city property and is not willing to cooperate much in the relocation process. The city is also in the process of implementing a zoning overhaul that limits density thus keeping homes in Austin expensive. It's like California here.
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  #2403  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
I think this will be a lot harder to pass than it seems -
Great comment and props for reading the dang initiative.

I had started to mull things like baseline definitions etc and notions of enforcement/penalties. Good feel for the political landscape as well.

Buckle up Buttercup
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  #2404  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 5:38 PM
SirLucasTheGreat SirLucasTheGreat is offline
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Quick question regarding 650 17th: Did anyone else notice that the concept plan was submitted after the developers missed the 2/12 closing deadline? It would seem that the developers must have known that they missed that deadline before they submitted their concept for review. I'm just curious if anyone finds the sequence of events significant for any reason.
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  #2405  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
And the attorneys on the board can help here: but the initiative https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/ele...66Results.html states that growth is limited to 1% annually, but doesn't explicitly state that this is 1% of each county's current housing stock, just that it limits the growth to 1%. Nor does it spell out enforcement - Does this mean that Denver could interpret this as 1% of the state's total and if someone complained about them issuing 23,000 permits claim ignorance? If no one is watching and there are no punishments are laid out, what happens if Denver issues 1.5%? or 10%? or 1.01%? Does it round up or down?
Lots of folks discussing this. I generally read it to limit new housing units to 1% of the base in each county. Easy enough to pull those numbers up from the State Demographer. So (since I have the numbers handy, let's pretend the 2016 numbers are the baseline), Denver has 314,631 housing units, so it could issue 3,146 permits the next year. Unclear whether the baseline goes up the following year from the built amount, or the built plus permitted. Less clear I think is how governing jurisdictions within counties might be allocated permits, but the simplest interpretation is 1% growth within each. So in some ways, that actually hurts an Aurora - with lots of growth potential, but a lower base - more than a Denver, where 1% goes further, since it's all infill and starting from a higher base. It kills a Bennett, and makes it hard for a Wheat Ridge to even use its allocation (unclear whether they are transferable within counties).

Another question I have relates to unit mix - the initiative says nothing about that. If all housing units are treated equally, it's hard to see Aurora permitting many more apartments - they get more bang for their buck our of a large house in Tallyns Reach. Not sure what it would mean in Denver... and then, is it first come, first served? What about projects that already have vested rights, but have not yet been given a permit - are they first in line? (or do they count at all?) Would be interesting how the courts would deal with that.

Then there's be the question of whether this sort of statutory restriction - it is not a constitutional change - is even within the state's power under the Colorado Constitution - I would absolutely march into court on the first day and say this is a matter of purely local concern, and that the state is powerless to restrict home rule cities in this way. (That litigation will happen, 100%, and it will not be without merit. Though it will probably come up when some anti-growth force moves to enjoin a City that's breaking the rules. Or perhaps when a developer gets denied.) Lots and lots of things to think about.
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  #2406  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2018, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Quick question regarding 650 17th: Did anyone else notice that the concept plan was submitted after the developers missed the 2/12 closing deadline? It would seem that the developers must have known that they missed that deadline before they submitted their concept for review. I'm just curious if anyone finds the sequence of events significant for any reason.
Good observation-the moment that I learned that Buzz Geller was involved and that Greenwich development firm had not had much of a record then that was it for me as a believer.
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  #2407  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 7:16 AM
mojiferous mojiferous is offline
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Then there's be the question of whether this sort of statutory restriction - it is not a constitutional change - is even within the state's power under the Colorado Constitution - I would absolutely march into court on the first day and say this is a matter of purely local concern, and that the state is powerless to restrict home rule cities in this way. (That litigation will happen, 100%, and it will not be without merit. Though it will probably come up when some anti-growth force moves to enjoin a City that's breaking the rules. Or perhaps when a developer gets denied.) Lots and lots of things to think about.
Thanks for the legal take Bunt!
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  #2408  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 8:53 PM
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I'm rooting you guys get Amazon-at least those jobs will pay much more than a lot of the ones created around there lately-my local metro of Sacramento is too close to Seattle and besides I think they want to go more towards the middle or east coast part of the country. Just think Amazon would be like having MillerCoors expanding more than 5 fold (Coors was one of my summer hire jobs I had back in the college days as well as IBM Boulder back in the 80s when IBM made copy machines and disk drives-both Coors and IBM paid really good wages back in the ole 80s). I just remember as a Denver native and long-time resident that local jobs didn't pay as much as what you saw back in the 80's and 90's.
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  #2409  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Lots of folks discussing this. I generally read it to limit new housing units to 1% of the base in each county. Easy enough to pull those numbers up from the State Demographer. So (since I have the numbers handy, let's pretend the 2016 numbers are the baseline), Denver has 314,631 housing units, so it could issue 3,146 permits the next year. Unclear whether the baseline goes up the following year from the built amount, or the built plus permitted. Less clear I think is how governing jurisdictions within counties might be allocated permits, but the simplest interpretation is 1% growth within each. So in some ways, that actually hurts an Aurora - with lots of growth potential, but a lower base - more than a Denver, where 1% goes further, since it's all infill and starting from a higher base. It kills a Bennett, and makes it hard for a Wheat Ridge to even use its allocation (unclear whether they are transferable within counties).

Another question I have relates to unit mix - the initiative says nothing about that. If all housing units are treated equally, it's hard to see Aurora permitting many more apartments - they get more bang for their buck our of a large house in Tallyns Reach. Not sure what it would mean in Denver... and then, is it first come, first served? What about projects that already have vested rights, but have not yet been given a permit - are they first in line? (or do they count at all?) Would be interesting how the courts would deal with that.

Then there's be the question of whether this sort of statutory restriction - it is not a constitutional change - is even within the state's power under the Colorado Constitution - I would absolutely march into court on the first day and say this is a matter of purely local concern, and that the state is powerless to restrict home rule cities in this way. (That litigation will happen, 100%, and it will not be without merit. Though it will probably come up when some anti-growth force moves to enjoin a City that's breaking the rules. Or perhaps when a developer gets denied.) Lots and lots of things to think about.
I like kinder, gentler Bunt better than angry Bunt. Lots of great posts lately, thanks for the quality insight.

Wouldn't this just absolutely destroy our #1 economy? Nationally housing is 18% of GDP. Think of all the contractors, laborers, even city permit department, code inspectors, appraisers, inspectors, realtors, title people, etc. etc. not to mention missed property tax revenue. I would think the bonds would take into account future projected revenue? Buzz's $17M parking lot and $100M condo building vs. a dusty, weedy patch of asphalt generating a paltry $80,000 in annual tax revenue...
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  #2410  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 9:56 PM
twister244 twister244 is online now
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Some more crumbs on the WTC front...

Found this video that was posted last month. Skip ahead to 12:00 where discussion on the new campus http://www.cobrt.com/radio/alex-beimtakes place. It appears we are very close to ground breaking with this project......

Not sure how others feel about the WTC project, but it really has the potential to be a major catalyst for future growth in RiNo. Everything up until recently was restaurants/Zeppelin/apartments. However, this project could really bring a whole new wave of investments once it gets underway....

http://www.cobrt.com/radio/alex-beim
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  #2411  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2018, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ View Post
Wouldn't this just absolutely destroy our #1 economy? Nationally housing is 18% of GDP. Think of all the contractors, laborers, even city permit department, code inspectors, appraisers, inspectors, realtors, title people, etc. etc. not to mention missed property tax revenue. I would think the bonds would take into account future projected revenue? Buzz's $17M parking lot and $100M condo building vs. a dusty, weedy patch of asphalt generating a paltry $80,000 in annual tax revenue...
Hard to say but maybe not so much initially; in fact it could have the opposite effect. If developers are indeed having trouble securing investors and/or construction loans I could see both investors and lenders being willing to commit if this initiative were to pass. If developers were lined up just needing loans there could be a lot of groundbreaking's occur in those last 55 days.

The other thing I was wondering is how much support is likely in El Paso Co (C-Springs) and DougCo? Colorado Springs is finally in recovery mode. Also Adams Co is now (finally) getting their bite at the growth apple. Bunt mentioned the negative impact on Aurora so how much support will come from there? Ultimately, how strong is the connection between how leadership feels in those areas and the "man on the street."

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Not sure how others feel about the WTC project, but it really has the potential to be a major catalyst for future growth in RiNo. Everything up until recently was restaurants/Zeppelin/apartments. However, this project could really bring a whole new wave of investments once it gets underway....
Agreed
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  #2412  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 12:13 AM
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1801 California's New Tramp Stamp

1801 California St. got a new logo this week - the installation of a logo for Healthgrades on the north side of the building. The building is now co-branded with TransAmerica, whose logo I believe will remain in place. I recall reading in the Denver Post that Healthgrades is moving their headquarters out of Denver Place and into 1801 California, and I was half-expecting their logo to be installed along with that move. Additional work remains before the corporate signage is fully installed, including shifting down the letters "thgr", installing the light tubes within the letter channel forms, and installing plastic/plexi faces on the letters.

I must say, the building's brown pebblestone facade is aging poorly and collecting significant amounts of grime; the building looks entirely worn out. I love the massing and sculptural form of this tower, but the exterior facade looks so neglected and utterly utilitarian. It's unfortunate that 1801 wasn't designed using a polished, smooth glazed facade like 17th Street Plaza, but oh well... maybe someday a complete facade replacement is in the cards for this aging property.

As far as corporate signage, I believe this building surpasses any other in Denver for the number of various corporate logos it has hosted and lost:

1. Completely Blank (no logos)
2. US West
3. Qwest (temporary blue canvas tiles with white letters)
4. Qwest (the real deal logos)
5. CenturyLink
6. TransAmerica (current)
7. Healthgrades (current)











^^^Larger Version of the above picture, showing more detail of how the logo is attached to facade, the interiors of the channel letters, the wiring/electrical work between the sign segments, etc. Pretty cool if you have a corporate logo fetish like I do: https://www.flickr.com/photos/767519...20522/sizes/o/


I also now officially nominate myself for Denver's resident corporate signage expert on downtown buildings
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  #2413  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 1:04 AM
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It is ****ing crooked.
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  #2414  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Lots of folks discussing this. I generally read it to limit new housing units to 1% of the base in each county. Easy enough to pull those numbers up from the State Demographer. So (since I have the numbers handy, let's pretend the 2016 numbers are the baseline), Denver has 314,631 housing units, so it could issue 3,146 permits the next year. Unclear whether the baseline goes up the following year from the built amount, or the built plus permitted. Less clear I think is how governing jurisdictions within counties might be allocated permits, but the simplest interpretation is 1% growth within each. So in some ways, that actually hurts an Aurora - with lots of growth potential, but a lower base - more than a Denver, where 1% goes further, since it's all infill and starting from a higher base. It kills a Bennett, and makes it hard for a Wheat Ridge to even use its allocation (unclear whether they are transferable within counties).

Another question I have relates to unit mix - the initiative says nothing about that. If all housing units are treated equally, it's hard to see Aurora permitting many more apartments - they get more bang for their buck our of a large house in Tallyns Reach. Not sure what it would mean in Denver... and then, is it first come, first served? What about projects that already have vested rights, but have not yet been given a permit - are they first in line? (or do they count at all?) Would be interesting how the courts would deal with that.

Then there's be the question of whether this sort of statutory restriction - it is not a constitutional change - is even within the state's power under the Colorado Constitution - I would absolutely march into court on the first day and say this is a matter of purely local concern, and that the state is powerless to restrict home rule cities in this way. (That litigation will happen, 100%, and it will not be without merit. Though it will probably come up when some anti-growth force moves to enjoin a City that's breaking the rules. Or perhaps when a developer gets denied.) Lots and lots of things to think about.

Good summary. I was going to post something on the home rule issue when I saw your post.

I've worked some on state statutory vs. home rule conflicts, and my initial take is that there no way this passes constitutional muster. The basic principal of Colorado Home Rule law is that if a matter is purely of local concern, then the home rule municipality can override any conflicting state statutes. As you note, this is a statutory initiative not a constitutional one.

Its hard to think of anything that would be a better example of purely local concern than the rules a municipality adopts governing its own development. For me, this would be THE paradigm example of a local interest that should trump any inconsistent actions by the state to try to regulate. This is similar to the case where the state legislature in the 1980s, in order to override a Denver ordinance, passed a statute baring cities from requiring residence within the city as a condition of employment. Denver simply ignored the statute and claimed that the legislature could not override such a matter of local concern. Denver won the case at the state supreme court.

The essential local nature of the issue is even supported by the measure itself whose very preamble emphasizes the localized nature of these sort of rules:

1) The electors of every city, town, city and county, or local county, whether statutory or home rule, reserve the right to limit housing growth by initiative and referendum without legislative inhibition or penalty. This right is further reserved on a countywide basis whereby electors throughout a county may elect to limit housing growth uniformly in all local governments and any part of such, whether statutory or home rule, within such county by initiative and referendum.

Thus, on the one hand the initiative recognizes the local nature of the issue but then goes on to to try to take that decision from the individual voters of ONLY the Front Range cities, and have a uniform rule imposed on them by statute. I think this will fail against the home rule cities and might even be challenged under equal protection arguments by non-home rule cities: that the act unfairly discriminates against voters in any front range city subject to the statutory restriction, granting rights to voters outside of the front range that front range voters won't have.

Further edit: Think of the absurdity of this: at least in theory, it's possible that all of the Front Range counties could vote "no" , but the measure passes due to overwhelming support elsewhere in the state. If that were to happen, you'd have a situation where the people subject to the rule, opposed it, and the people not subject to the rule, supported it! This might further support an equal protection challenge.


(As an aside, this may be an example where the the new restriction on initiatives for constitutional amendments prevented the organizers from trying to use a constitutional amendment to accomplish their purposes. Under the rules now in place, an initiated constitutional amendment requires that the supporters get signatures from 2 percent of the registered voters who live in each of the state's 35 senate districts).

Last edited by CherryCreek; Mar 5, 2018 at 8:40 PM.
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  #2415  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 5:52 PM
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CherryCreek... Would I be right in assuming that if this initiative were organized as a county by county decision ie separate elections/decisions then that would more likely pass muster?
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  #2416  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 5:56 PM
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CherryCreek... Would I be right in assuming that if this initiative were organized as a county by county decision ie separate elections/decisions then that would more likely pass muster?
I would say that if the county or city allows initiatives (I think most (perhaps all?) do), then generally yes, you can follow those procedures and if you prevail on the initiative, then it would be enforceable.

Thus, in Denver County, if you followed the initiative process and got voters to approve this under the Denver Charter, then it would likely be enforceable (assuming there weren't any other constitutional issues).

Here's a good link on Colorado local initiative law https://ballotpedia.org/Laws_governi...es_in_Colorado
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  #2417  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 6:06 PM
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(As an aside, this may be an example where the the new restriction on initiatives for constitutional amendments prevented the organizers from trying to use a constitutional amendment to accomplish their purposes. Under the rules now in place, an initiated constitutional amendment requires that the supporters get signatures from 2 percent of the registered voters who live in each of the state's 35 senate districts).
I had that exact same thought.
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  #2418  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 7:50 PM
twister244 twister244 is online now
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ANOTHER RiNo project, although smaller in nature and residential:

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...g-to-rino.html
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  #2419  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2018, 10:26 PM
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I would say that if the county or city allows initiatives (I think most (perhaps all?) do), then generally yes, you can follow those procedures and if you prevail on the initiative, then it would be enforceable.
Then the next obvious question is could it be argued that the initiative was flawed because it didn't follow those procedures?

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ANOTHER RiNo project, although smaller in nature and residential:

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...g-to-rino.html

Rendering courtesy Peak Development via BusinessDen

Good News
https://businessden.com/2018/03/05/p...artment-combo/
Quote:
The parcel includes a two-story building, constructed in 1890, that the developers plan to preserve, with the new construction flanking it on both sides.
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  #2420  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2018, 12:00 AM
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Well, that didn't take long. The proposed towers on Larimer Square are in for a BIG fight.

https://www.denverite.com/historic-d...5/?src=parsely
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