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  #2401  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 3:30 PM
moorhosj moorhosj is offline
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Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
It probably is best to cut off pensions for new workers. Put them on social security and give them a 401(k) match.
I see this mentioned a lot by arm chair economists, but I've never seen a credible plan to actually achieve it. The pension system works much like Social Security in that it relies on current workers paying into the fund in order to pay out liabilities to retired workers.

If current workers move to individualized accounts (401k), how would we pay out the existing liabilities and keep the promises our Supreme Court has already ruled on?
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  #2402  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 3:44 PM
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It probably is best to cut off pensions for new workers. Put them on social security and give them a 401(k) match.
And then the substantial increase in octogenarian history teachers can serve as actual primary sources! It's a win-win.
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  #2403  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 4:08 PM
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Really the inflation rate needs to go up past 3% and then it will be fine...
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  #2404  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 4:28 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by moorhosj View Post
I see this mentioned a lot by arm chair economists, but I've never seen a credible plan to actually achieve it. The pension system works much like Social Security in that it relies on current workers paying into the fund in order to pay out liabilities to retired workers.

If current workers move to individualized accounts (401k), how would we pay out the existing liabilities and keep the promises our Supreme Court has already ruled on?
Lol, you think public sector union workers contribute to their own pensions in Chicago. Cute.
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  #2405  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 6:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moorhosj View Post
I see this mentioned a lot by arm chair economists, but I've never seen a credible plan to actually achieve it. The pension system works much like Social Security in that it relies on current workers paying into the fund in order to pay out liabilities to retired workers.

If current workers move to individualized accounts (401k), how would we pay out the existing liabilities and keep the promises our Supreme Court has already ruled on?
I'm curious how that would work as well. I grew up in Iowa and during the 1980's the state went through a massive financial collapse and it was awful. My dad worked for the University of Iowa and I know at that point he was moved to a 401K style plan that he had until his retirement a few years ago.

He worked for the university for nearly 30 years, but then when he retired he walked away with $1,300,000 in his 401K plan that's all his and he doesn't have to deal with pentions or the university/representatives for anything.
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  #2406  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 7:00 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Really the inflation rate needs to go up past 3% and then it will be fine...
That will certainly help a lot. Too bad we appear to be very far from much inflation. Fed is expected to lower rates again.

We definitely need to move all new workers going forward to a 401k/SSA system and we should not provide an employer match the 401k until the state constitution is changed to eliminate the benefit protection. Employers need the flexibility to change benefits.
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  #2407  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 7:55 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by Vlajos View Post
That will certainly help a lot. Too bad we appear to be very far from much inflation. Fed is expected to lower rates again.
I'm not an economist, but aren't *higher* rates more typically associated with low inflation? As interest rates are reduced, more money is borrowed, thus more money is spent, causing the economy to grow and inflation to increase?

Of course, maybe that's wrong. But if it is, it's wrong in a way where no one knows what's going on.
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  #2408  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2019, 8:47 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
I'm not an economist, but aren't *higher* rates more typically associated with low inflation? As interest rates are reduced, more money is borrowed, thus more money is spent, causing the economy to grow and inflation to increase?

Of course, maybe that's wrong. But if it is, it's wrong in a way where no one knows what's going on.
Higher rates are put in place in order to lower inflation or slow down the economy. When the Fed is lowering rates, that typically means inflation is low and the economy needs a boost. Of course, Japan has had 0% interest rates and deflation for a while now, probably driven by an aging and shrinking population. A problem the US will likely face soon enough unless we allow more immigration. The guaranteed 3% COLA in IL's pensions is likely to be a problem for a while. This is why employers need the ability to change benefits. You can't predict the future and having something long term such as pensions not being able to be changed is ridiculous. The Federal government changes Social Security but for some reason Illinois pensions were constitutionally guaranteed.

Last edited by Vlajos; Jun 24, 2019 at 9:07 PM.
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  #2409  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2019, 8:17 PM
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Originally Posted by moorhosj View Post
I see this mentioned a lot by arm chair economists, but I've never seen a credible plan to actually achieve it. The pension system works much like Social Security in that it relies on current workers paying into the fund in order to pay out liabilities to retired workers.

If current workers move to individualized accounts (401k), how would we pay out the existing liabilities and keep the promises our Supreme Court has already ruled on?
This is generally correct - newer employees (Tier IIs) have lower benefit accruals than older employees in most of the pension plans, but have the same payroll deductions, so newer employees are actually paying more into the system than they'll ever get out as part of the inter-generational theft scam to boost fund contributions.

Most local pension funds will have a growing unfunded liability if you cut off new employees, though you're actually doing those new employees a favor if they're under ~35-40, because they'd be better off taking the same payroll contributions and investing them in an IRA themselves rather than subsidize the 60 year olds who paid nothing back in the day but whose pension benefit is untouchable because the state constitution is apparently a suicide pact.
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  #2410  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2019, 4:48 PM
BrinChi BrinChi is offline
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Bullshit?


https://www.chicagobusiness.com/opin...icle3-headline

I predicted in December 2017 that the cap on so-called SALT deductions would result in “a population migration so large that it could result in profound economic and social changes.” It’s happening.


A Bloomberg News analysis last month of state-to-state moves based on data from the Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. Census Bureau found that Connecticut, New York and New Jersey faced some of the biggest financial drains.

Connecticut lost the equivalent of 1.6% of its annual adjusted gross income, as those who moved out of the state had an average income of $122,000, which was 26% higher than those migrating in. New York’s annual net loss was the highest, with a net $8.4 billion leaving the state. Exiting incomes of $19.1 billion were replaced by people who brought in $10.7 billion less in income. Illinois and New Jersey were next with net outflows of $4.8 billion and $3.4 billion.

In high-tax states, the combined federal, state, and local tax burden can approach or exceed 50%, even after taking into account lower marginal rates. There is something magic about the 50% number that causes people to rethink their finances. I would characterize a combined tax burden of over 50% as immoral, on the grounds that it is simply unfair to take more than half of what somebody makes. It is true that U.S. taxes overall are lower than in other countries as a percentage of GDP. It is also true that on a historical basis, marginal income tax rates are not especially high. This, however, does not provide a justification for ultra-high tax rates.

Rational economic actors seek to lower their tax bills. There are frictional costs associated with moving, but people will do the mental math and figure out if the long-term gain from a lower tax bill exceeds the short-term pain from moving. Blue state governors have mostly refused to acknowledge the migration. When they have, they attribute it to things like the weather.

Mostly, they have responded to complaints of high taxes with higher taxes. Which is also not irrational. If your state experiences out-migration and your tax base erodes, first-order thinking would lead you to believe that you can plug the hole with higher sales taxes and fees, as Connecticut is doing. Alternatively, a forward-thinking governor could instead drastically reduce the size and scope of government and lower the tax burden on, yes, even rich taxpayers.

Blue state Democrats are in a bit of a pickle. On one hand, they clamor for confiscatory tax rates of 70% to 90%, but on the other hand, they seek to lower taxes on the rich, by raising the cap on SALT deductions, to disincentivize them from leaving the state. One nice side effect of the SALT cap is that states who had been planning millionaire’s taxes (like New Jersey) experienced a great deal of pressure to exercise restraint.

In spite of overwhelming evidence that taxes influence behavior, there are plenty of tax-migration deniers. They say high taxes pay for top-notch services of the kind you get in wealthy blue-states. I talk to the folks who move to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, which is where I live and is the 2nd fastest-growing metropolitan area in the country. It has nice weather, yes, but more crucially, it has a low cost of living and an exceptionally low property tax burden that averages about $1,500 for a typical house. That is the selling point, and nothing else. The new arrivals are not much interested in the services.
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  #2411  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2019, 7:13 PM
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[QUOTE=BrinChi;861

In spite of overwhelming evidence that taxes influence behavior, there are plenty of tax-migration deniers. They say high taxes pay for top-notch services of the kind you get in wealthy blue-states. I talk to the folks who move to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, which is where I live and is the 2nd fastest-growing metropolitan area in the country. It has nice weather, yes, but more crucially, it has a low cost of living and an exceptionally low property tax burden that averages about $1,500 for a typical house. That is the selling point, and nothing else. The new arrivals are not much interested in the services.[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrinChi View Post
In spite of overwhelming evidence that taxes influence behavior, there are plenty of tax-migration deniers. They say high taxes pay for top-notch services of the kind you get in wealthy blue-states. I talk to the folks who move to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, which is where I live and is the 2nd fastest-growing metropolitan area in the country. It has nice weather, yes, but more crucially, it has a low cost of living and an exceptionally low property tax burden that averages about $1,500 for a typical house. That is the selling point, and nothing else. The new arrivals are not much interested in the services.
Myrtle. Beach. A retirement town?

That's the heart of this debate, isn't it. Services, like good schools and mass transit and research institutions and telecommunications and internet infrastructure and international airports, that contribute to a more productive urban workforce are incompatible with the low taxes that retirees and the people who service them seek out.

This article and many people in this thread are debating two completely different populations. Anecdotally, I spent many years in a wealthy Sunbelt retirement city, and almost everybody between the ages of 18-45 left to go up North to Boston, Chicago, NYC, ect. in spite of taxes because the local job market was moribund.
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  #2412  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2019, 4:47 AM
BrinChi BrinChi is offline
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Myrtle. Beach. A retirement town?

That's the heart of this debate, isn't it. Services, like good schools and mass transit and research institutions and telecommunications and internet infrastructure and international airports, that contribute to a more productive urban workforce are incompatible with the low taxes that retirees and the people who service them seek out.

This article and many people in this thread are debating two completely different populations. Anecdotally, I spent many years in a wealthy Sunbelt retirement city, and almost everybody between the ages of 18-45 left to go up North to Boston, Chicago, NYC, ect. in spite of taxes because the local job market was moribund.
I believe the explanation of what we're going through is along the lines of the response to the question here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nChhkHpkD0Y listen to the question/response @ 15:45
The problem is people who think like Jaren Dillian believe that local governments in places like Myrtle Beach are better managed and less wasteful and that is the reason they can live there for cheaper. But the reality is that Myrtle Beach is cheap for the moment until it also stops growing and its liabilities catch up with it. The frustrating thing is this will probably take at least a generation, and at that point the next Myrtle Beach is developing somewhere else.

Last edited by BrinChi; Jun 28, 2019 at 5:01 AM.
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  #2413  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2019, 3:58 PM
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If they really do push through this progressive tax I think that will have an impact on high income people choosing to stay or move out of the state. If you make more than $750K single or $1M joint it is going to tax the entire thing at 8%, not just the incremental amount.

I think it's a mistake taking the graduated rate and then hitting everyone for the entire 8% once you cross that magic threshold. Honestly if my family wasn't tied down and we hit $1M I would be financially irresponsible not to at least think about jumping to a different state if it made sense.

The rates are also a little annoying. They say almost everyone is GETTING TAX RELIEF. Well basically that's because the rates are slightly lower on the first $10,000 of income you get, and then it's right back up to around 5%.

Rates:
4.75%
4.90%
4.95%
7.75%
7.85%
7.99%

The rates seem to be a bit of smoke and mirrors, with essentially two different brackets, 5% and 8%, but with these small differences so they can at least tell you your taxes are going up or down based on making a certain amount and being "middle class".

You really want it progressive. Just make it 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%, 7% and 8% at thresholds of say $50K, 100K, 200K, 500K 750K 1M and 2M.

something like that.
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  #2414  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2019, 4:00 PM
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Not if you want to raise $3.4 billion of taxes through a progressive income tax!

Only $200 million (5.9%) of that will be dedicated to pensions.

The other $3.2 billion is for more state sponsored programs. And don’t worry, the rates will never hit the middle class.
Wait, where the hell is the other $3.2 BILLION a year going? It better be paying down the backlog of bills and paying off debt.

Silly to just jack up spending on everything else. Or at least dump the whole thing in pensions to get those on track as fast as you can and then get the state back on a normal setting.

How are all these leaders SO stupid when it comes to finances and at least pretending to look towards the future.
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  #2415  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2019, 4:59 PM
moorhosj moorhosj is offline
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Originally Posted by BrinChi View Post
I believe the explanation of what we're going through is along the lines of the response to the question here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nChhkHpkD0Y listen to the question/response @ 15:45
The problem is people who think like Jaren Dillian believe that local governments in places like Myrtle Beach are better managed and less wasteful and that is the reason they can live there for cheaper. But the reality is that Myrtle Beach is cheap for the moment until it also stops growing and its liabilities catch up with it. The frustrating thing is this will probably take at least a generation, and at that point the next Myrtle Beach is developing somewhere else.
It’s not that this op-Ed is “wrong”, the problem is that he has an answer in search of a problem. Myrtle Beach has high violent crime, awful schools and is pretty dumpy; which does actually support the low taxes/bad services theory. He also claims, without evidence, that cost of living is the sole driver of population increase. This doesn’t pass the smell test as there are obviously cheaper places that people could move. Texas has no income tax and Alaska pays people to live there, for example.

The reality is a blend. They have nicer weather, taxes are low and retired people don’t care about schools. For people under 50, I’m not sure low cost of living really trumps things like career opportunities, schools, libraries, parks, etc. People who do make that choice based solely on COL are being short-sighted in my mind.
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  #2416  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2019, 9:51 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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If they really do push through this progressive tax I think that will have an impact on high income people choosing to stay or move out of the state. If you make more than $750K single or $1M joint it is going to tax the entire thing at 8%, not just the incremental amount.
.
Sure. Look at New York City. The CITY, not the state, has like a 5% income tax. There's not a single millionaire living in Manhattan now. All those folks have moved to Wyoming and Kansas. And major league baseball is another example. None of those guys want to sign contracts in California where the taxes are high. They are all like, "Put me in Myrtle Beach for Christ's sake, where the firehose of money that's being sprayed at me will be ever so slightly more forceful!"

Sarcasm, obviously. Taxes pay for the investments that create growth. Tax dollars shouldn't be wasted or mismanaged, obviously, but everyone benefits when, for example, children who will someday be your neighbors learn to read and don't have parasites and whatnot. When wealth is obtained, a great deal of it ends up--needs to be--spent isolating itself from poverty. Much more efficient to simply cut out the middle man there.

I do well. I don't mind paying my fair share. And I know a lot of people who do MUCH better than me and none of them are clamoring for a 16% effective tax rate rather than a 21%. The reality is that they don't even notice a difference.
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  #2417  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2019, 11:12 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
Sure. Look at New York City. The CITY, not the state, has like a 5% income tax. There's not a single millionaire living in Manhattan now. All those folks have moved to Wyoming and Kansas. And major league baseball is another example. None of those guys want to sign contracts in California where the taxes are high. They are all like, "Put me in Myrtle Beach for Christ's sake, where the firehose of money that's being sprayed at me will be ever so slightly more forceful!"

Sarcasm, obviously. Taxes pay for the investments that create growth. Tax dollars shouldn't be wasted or mismanaged, obviously, but everyone benefits when, for example, children who will someday be your neighbors learn to read and don't have parasites and whatnot. When wealth is obtained, a great deal of it ends up--needs to be--spent isolating itself from poverty. Much more efficient to simply cut out the middle man there.

I do well. I don't mind paying my fair share. And I know a lot of people who do MUCH better than me and none of them are clamoring for a 16% effective tax rate rather than a 21%. The reality is that they don't even notice a difference.
Cringeworthy post.

Do you even know why the taxes are being raised?

I feel like I just read the post of a sixteen year old girl who still thinks that a shining young prince is going to swoop in and whisk her off her feet.

Welcome to the shitbag called real life, where 80% of your rising tax bill goes to pay for Madigan’s shenanigans from 2004, which paid for his very same shenanigans from 1994, all while he was evilly cackling at the taxpayers who can’t vote him out of office because, like, only 20,000 people from around Midway Airport have a say in whether a man with Statewide power gets to remain in office.

You can call a turd a candy bar or.....just wake the fuck up and call it a turd. No, the world’s not ending and we’ll all be fine. But just stop sounding like a sixteen year old princess, please.
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  #2418  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2019, 3:41 AM
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Cringeworthy post.

Do you even know why the taxes are being raised?

I feel like I just read the post of a sixteen year old girl who still thinks that a shining young prince is going to swoop in and whisk her off her feet.

Welcome to the shitbag called real life, where 80% of your rising tax bill goes to pay for Madigan’s shenanigans from 2004, which paid for his very same shenanigans from 1994, all while he was evilly cackling at the taxpayers who can’t vote him out of office because, like, only 20,000 people from around Midway Airport have a say in whether a man with Statewide power gets to remain in office.

You can call a turd a candy bar or.....just wake the fuck up and call it a turd. No, the world’s not ending and we’ll all be fine. But just stop sounding like a sixteen year old princess, please.

I approve of your post TUP
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  #2419  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2019, 9:36 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Cringeworthy post.

Do you even know why the taxes are being raised?

I feel like I just read the post of a sixteen year old girl who still thinks that a shining young prince is going to swoop in and whisk her off her feet.

.
You're deflecting. As everyone who "hates high taxes" does when it's pointed out that low-tax environments struggle economically and moderately taxed places thrive. If that's acknowledged, the whole thing crumbles.

I've always thought it would be exhausting to have one's ideology built on a foundation as shaky as right-wing tax policy or religion. You'd have to defend nonsense all day because you don't know which crack in the foundation will topple the entire edifice.

Something that's way under-discussed when it comes to Illinois' fiscal mess is how much tax fear mongering in previous decades is responsible for putting us where we are now. Just a *small hike* 20 years ago and we'd avoid all this business. But for as long as there has been work that needs doing, there have been people who've yelled "if we raise taxes, people will leave!" as they snigger behind their fists.
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  #2420  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2019, 3:11 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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I've always thought it would be exhausting to have one's ideology built on a foundation as shaky as right-wing tax policy or religion. You'd have to defend nonsense all day because you don't know which crack in the foundation will topple the entire edifice.
I think people of all walks of life don't want their hard earned money wasted and abused. Not sure why you have to label it as a "right wing" thing?

Quote:
Something that's way under-discussed when it comes to Illinois' fiscal mess is how much tax fear mongering in previous decades is responsible for putting us where we are now. Just a *small hike* 20 years ago and we'd avoid all this business. But for as long as there has been work that needs doing, there have been people who've yelled "if we raise taxes, people will leave!" as they snigger behind their fists.
Once again, your answer continues to be "we should've taxed ourselves more". It shows that you haven't studied Illinois' fiscal history.

Do you actually understand why the State is in this mess with the pensions? It isn't because we didn't tax ourselves enough. It's because our elected officials didn't make regular, required contributions towards the pension systems decades ago. It was fiscal mismanagement of the worst kind.

I'm hoping you understand this...
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