Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[OldDartmouthMark]

While I admire Canada stepping up and providing support for humanitarian purposes, I can't help but step back and be a little puzzled at the dynamic.

Isreal is attacked by Hamas with thousands of their citizens being brutally murdered, tortured and kidnapped. Israel strikes back at Hamas in an overly heavy handed way, but it was still a reaction to an attack. Lebanon inserts themselves into the war by attacking Israel, certainly expecting a massive retaliation, given what they have just witnessed with Hamas/Gaza. Now Canada is providing aid to Lebanon?

I'm not sure how this is Canada's place, to become involved in what amounts to a centuries-old religious conflict in a part of the world where there always will be conflict, unless one side has a massive victory and exterminates the other.

Oh yeah, Canada has a huge Lebanese-Canadian population, and we all know there is an election coming up....

Sorry, I tend to be somewhat cynical at times. It's good that Canada can provide humanitarian support to Lebanon. Hopefully their neighbouring countries, who also share their values, can provide as much, or more support. Maybe they already have. Maybe they too will work on fighting against Israel, after which I suppose Canada will give them some aid as well... at least if it happens before the election.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

While I admire Canada stepping up and providing support for humanitarian purposes, I can't help but step back and be a little puzzled at the dynamic.

Isreal is attacked by Hamas with thousands of their citizens being brutally murdered, tortured and kidnapped. Israel strikes back at Hamas in an overly heavy handed way, but it was still a reaction to an attack. Lebanon inserts themselves into the war by attacking Israel, certainly expecting a massive retaliation, given what they have just witnessed with Hamas/Gaza. Now Canada is providing aid to Lebanon?
:

Just to clarify. Lebanon has not attacked Israel. Hezbollah which is based in Lebanon has been attacking Israel. One can argue that Lebanon is either inept or complicit with respect to Hezbollah's presence on its territory, but it's not the same as the state of Lebanon attacking Israel.

Sure, Hezbollah has some support in the Lebanon but it is very regional and sectarian.

Hezbollah = / = Lebanon

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just to clarify. Lebanon has not attacked Israel. Hezbollah which is based in Lebanon has been attacking Israel. One can argue that Lebanon is either inept or complicit with respect to Hezbollah's presence on its territory, but it's not the same as the state of Lebanon attacking Israel.

Sure, Hezbollah has some support in the Lebanon but it is very regional and sectarian.

Hezbollah = / = Lebanon

Thanks for the clarification. I just assumed that Hezbollah had the support of the Lebanese government, since they were firing rockets from Lebanon, through Lebanon’s air space, which then crossed the border and entered another country.

Typically such actions would be considered an act of war, and in Canada would be considered unacceptable and presumably dealt with, as obviously we wouldn’t want to be drawn into a war through the actions of an independent terrorist group. Thus I assumed that the government was complicit in the activities of Hezbollah. Obviously I must be mistaken in my assumption, in which case Lebanon is in fact a victim of Hezbollah, and not an ally. Appreciate your clearing that up for me.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Just saw on the news that missiles are currently being fired at Israel, coming from Iran, presumably from some independently acting terrorist group.

Edit: apparently the IRGC has taken responsibility for the attack.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isla...ry_Guard_Corps

[Acajack]

Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, and have elected members of parliament. But they don't really control the government and there are lots of anti-Hezbolllah people in the government.

But Lebanon's government is so weak that it can't control the presence of a terrorist paramilitary organization in a large part of its territory that functions like a parallel quasi-government there.

It's said that the official Lebanese army, whose presence and impact was already fairly weak, has completely pulled out of southern Lebanon where Hezbollah and Israel are now fighting it out.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, and have elected members of parliament. But they don't really control the government and there are lots of anti-Hezbolllah people in the government.

But Lebanon's government is so weak that it can't control the presence of a terrorist paramilitary organization in a large part of its territory that functions like a parallel quasi-government there.

It's said that the official Lebanese army, whose presence and impact was already fairly weak, has completely pulled out of southern Lebanon where Hezbollah and Israel are now fighting it out.

So, it would be the equivalent of the Conservative Party lobbing missiles into the US and The LPC being too weak to put a stop to it?

It’s a sad state of affairs, and adds another logical reason as to why church and state have to remain separate, as Quebec has been trying to do. Religion + Politics = death.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just to clarify. Lebanon has not attacked Israel. Hezbollah which is based in Lebanon has been attacking Israel. One can argue that Lebanon is either inept or complicit with respect to Hezbollah's presence on its territory, but it's not the same as the state of Lebanon attacking Israel.

Sure, Hezbollah has some support in the Lebanon but it is very regional and sectarian.

Hezbollah = / = Lebanon

Inept AND complicit.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

So, it would be the equivalent of the Conservative Party lobbing missiles into the US and The LPC being too weak to put a stop to it?
.

More like if a whole lot of Trumpists from the US South moved to Canada, set up shop and lobbed missiles constantly in the northern "blue states", and also found a way to get political representation in our Parliament. And Canada didn't or couldn't do much about it. Most of Canada would hate these guys, but they'd become numerous enough in certain parts of Canada and also convince a certain number of Canadians to join their cause.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It’s a sad state of affairs, and adds another logical reason as to why church and state have to remain separate, as Quebec has been trying to do. Religion + Politics = death.

Can't say we didn't warn you.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

More like if a whole lot of Trumpists from the US South moved to Canada, set up shop and lobbed missiles constantly in the northern "blue states", and also found a way to get political representation in our Parliament. And Canada didn't or couldn't do much about it. Most of Canada would hate these guys, but they'd become numerous enough in certain parts of Canada and also convince a certain number of Canadians to join their cause.

Well done.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Can't say we didn't warn you.

True enough… I think we would have a very long road to travel before Canada became this bad, but if things like the Hamas protests in Canada devolve into something more radical and widespread, IMHO I could imagine a day when we head in that direction. At this point I’m thinking that this is highly unlikely.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

He's a bit of a loon. For this and a number of other reasons.

So how did he get elected?

[casper]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

True enough… I think we would have a very long road to travel before Canada became this bad, but if things like the Hamas protests in Canada devolve into something more radical and widespread, IMHO I could imagine a day when we head in that direction. At this point I’m thinking that this is highly unlikely.

Canada functions as a country because the vast majority of Canadian agree to our shared values and accepts the results of democratic elections.

You just need need to look at the Trucker convoy in Ottawa, the COVID blockade at the border in Alberta, or the various indigenous blockades to see what happens when some disagree and organize. Some of this is Canadian customs dictates that government respond is a progressive way that starts with talking, the courts and if necessary force.

Lebanon emerged out of civil war, and I don't think the government is eager to see a return to that situation. That means they have to give certain factions some degree of autonomy.

The best thing Israel and the west could do is to support a strong government in Lebanon and the Palestine that is able to assert its authority. However, well that is not happening any time soon.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by casper

Canada functions as a country because the vast majority of Canadian agree to our shared values and accepts the results of democratic elections.

You just need need to look at the Trucker convoy in Ottawa, the COVID blockade at the border in Alberta, or the various indigenous blockades to see what happens when some disagree and organize. Some of this is Canadian customs dictates that government respond is a progressive way that starts with talking, the courts and if necessary force.

Lebanon emerged out of civil war, and I don't think the government is eager to see a return to that situation. That means they have to give certain factions some degree of autonomy.

The best thing Israel and the west could do is to support a strong government in Lebanon and the Palestine that is able to assert its authority. However, well that is not happening any time soon.

I think the main factor in all of this is the aggressiveness of extreme religious fundimentalists that are behind the terrorist movements. As long as Canada does not allow such organizations to gain a strong foothold in the country, we will probably not go down that road. IMHO, the Hamas protests of this past summer gave us a glimpse of what it could look like, though, if we continue to weaken our resolve. "From the river to the sea"...

I'm sure we have nothing to worry about, however. It's just fodder for conversation.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Can't say we didn't warn you.

It's a stretch to say that letting a school teacher wear a hijab is going to result in going to result in the cultivation of an Islamofascist statelet in Canada.

Lebanon is obviously unique. And it's not just religion. Ethnic divisions also played a role. Notably the influx of Palestinian refugees. And there's the long history of foreign meddling. From the colonial powers to more recently Iranian and Syrian sponsorship of Hezbollah.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think the main factor in all of this is the aggressiveness of extreme religious fundimentalists that are behind the terrorist movements. As long as Canada does not allow such organizations to gain a strong foothold in the country, we will probably not go down that road. IMHO, the Hamas protests of this past summer gave us a glimpse of what it could look like, though, if we continue to weaken our resolve. "From the river to the sea"...

I'm sure we have nothing to worry about, however. It's just fodder for conversation.

The protests aren't support for Islamism. It's college and high school kids using those slogans because they believe that's the way to support the Palestinian cause.

As for the supposed threat to Canada. We now take in more Hindus than Muslims. Ever seen their views on Islamism?

Also, let's not forget that the Arabs turned to religious extremism when their push for ethnic unity (pan-Arabism) failed. Israel even fanned these flames themselves, hoping to divide and conquer.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The protests aren't support for Islamism. It's college and high school kids using those slogans because they believe that's the way to support the Palestinian cause.

As for the supposed threat to Canada. We now take in more Hindus than Muslims. Ever seen their views on Islamism?

Also, let's not forget that the Arabs turned to religious extremism when their push for ethnic unity (pan-Arabism) failed. Israel even fanned these flames themselves, hoping to divide and conquer.

I think that you are underselling the intelligence of university students. There is no way that they don’t understand the significance of those slogans. Of course we all know that idealism and exuberance is common at that age, but I think we shouldn’t ignore the existence of targeted influence from those with a larger stake in the movement, wanting to create societal unrest and thus political influence in their favour. It’s not just a bunch of starry eyed university kids wanting to save the world, there’s an agenda behind it.

So you’re saying that having large populations of religious groups who hate one another and have a reputation of acting on their hate is good for Canada? I am glad that I can relax and not worry about it. Thanks.

As far as the Arab-Israel dynamic goes, I’m not saying that either side is right, just that groups of people who kill other groups of people just because they differ on religious beliefs scare me a little bit… no, a lot. That type of irrational emotion leading to fanaticism is never good for peace. Thankfully (hopefully), we have and will continue to have the good people in the military, law enforcement, and (hopefully) the politicians that we choose to look after our interests watching out for us, though admittedly it has felt like that has slipped a little lately.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just to clarify. Lebanon has not attacked Israel. Hezbollah which is based in Lebanon has been attacking Israel. One can argue that Lebanon is either inept or complicit with respect to Hezbollah's presence on its territory, but it's not the same as the state of Lebanon attacking Israel.

Sure, Hezbollah has some support in the Lebanon but it is very regional and sectarian.

Hezbollah = / = Lebanon

There’s actually a pretty close real-life US/Canada comparable: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

There’s actually a pretty close real-life US/Canada comparable: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids

Excellent point!

And, in turn the St.Alban's Raid during the American Civil War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Albans_Raid

(not quite the same thing I know).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

So how did he get elected?

It's municipal politics and it's Gatineau.