The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Jet fuel is exempt from carbon taxes.

Only in provinces that have their own carbon tax programs. You can see the taxation rate for aviation fuel imposed by the federal carbon tax program here.

[milomilo]

The rules are very opaque, but it was my understanding we don't carbon tax international flights? And possibly only charge the carbon tax on internal flights in the provinces either under the federal scheme or that choose to do so?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why not? As I understand it, H2 is more weight efficient but less space efficient. So it shouldn't be impossible, the shape of the planes will just have to change.

The type of pressure vessel required to store the H2 and then the weight of the fuel cells required, make it very impractical. And H2 combustion yields NOx.

Originally Posted by milomilo

But we'll see what happens, and we should be giving airlines the right incentives but it seems that air travel is one area that no governments want to put meaningful carbon taxes on.

There's no real alternative yet, though biofuels are coming on quickly as a sort of interim (especially in blends). And long haul requires global agreements. ICAO is actually working on a global industry wide tax and targets.

The biggest thing that a lot of governments can do is simply build the alternatives to negate short haul flying. There really is no good reason for anybody to fly between Toronto and Montreal or Calgary and Edmonton.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The rules are very opaque, but it was my understanding we don't carbon tax international flights? And possibly only charge the carbon tax on internal flights in the provinces either under the federal scheme or that choose to do so?

This is my understanding too.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Floppa

And big polluters like coal power plants pay lower than you and me! Thanks JT

They fell under the Output Based Pricing System. And that was the right call. The alternative is chaos in the provincial economies, which have coal power generation, as electricity prices skyrocket. The government is also giving them aid to convert coal plant to natural gas (half the CO2) or install carbon capture (90% less CO2).

And given the pace at which renewables are getting cheaper, power sector emissions really aren't that much of a concern. Coal power is done by 2030 either which way.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Why not? As I understand it, H2 is more weight efficient but less space efficient. So it shouldn't be impossible, the shape of the planes will just have to change. But we'll see what happens, and we should be giving airlines the right incentives but it seems that air travel is one area that no governments want to put meaningful carbon taxes on.

Containment of H2 requires very thick, heavy tanks right now. I think that's the main issue for all H2 transportation, and would be the most problematic for air travel.

[MolsonExport]

Misher, is that you? If so, please stay away.

[Floppa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The biggest thing that a lot of governments can do is simply build the alternatives to negate short haul flying. There really is no good reason for anybody to fly between Toronto and Montreal or Calgary and Edmonton.

Ehhhh... I wouldn't be so sure. You'd have to make train travel both significantly faster and cheaper than it is now. And while HFR would be awesome if it actually happened, it's not going to put that big a dent in the share of flying until, at the very least, it's possible to take a train from Ottawa to the Pearson terminal.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

JFC did David Suzuki piss in your cornflakes or something? The guy is 85 years old I don't think he's very relevant anymore or will be for much longer. I get it, you don't like non-white people telling you what to do or feel bad about your choices. How else to explain your also irrational hatred of Jagmeet Singh?

Do you have to bring in your race conspiracy theories into every conversation?
You really are incredibly insecure.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Floppa

Ehhhh... I wouldn't be so sure. You'd have to make train travel both significantly faster and cheaper than it is now.

Indeed, that's why I said they need to build the alternative.

Originally Posted by Floppa

And while HFR would be awesome if it actually happened, it's not going to put that big a dent in the share of flying until, at the very least, it's possible to take a train from Ottawa to the Pearson terminal.

I'm willing to bet money that Toronto-Ottawa loses air passengers. Might be the only sector of HFR that is competitive.

[O-tacular]

If the Cons win the next election any meaningful action on Canada's part to reduce emissions or help strengthen international cooperation is gone. I don't trust DoughTool one bit.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

If the Cons win the next election any meaningful action on Canada's part to reduce emissions or help strengthen international cooperation is gone. I don't trust DoughTool one bit.

I can't see the CPC getting a majority. And I agree their climate "plan" is a huge problem and one reason I just can't consider voting for them, even though other parts of their plan look pretty good.

[milomilo]

The CPC's weird carbon debit card scheme is so unbelievably terrible that I don't believe they'll actually implement it. Even if the CPC do win and implement their plan, the current federal carbon tax already has more holes in it than swiss cheese and is weak AF, so it's not going to make much difference whoever gets in.

[jawagord]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

If the Cons win the next election any meaningful action on Canada's part to reduce emissions or help strengthen international cooperation is gone. I don't trust DoughTool one bit.

Canada has a very hard path on CO2 reductions. It’s why the federal Liberals (and Conservatives) have never met a climate target in the 30+ years of trying. The current Liberal government is 6 years in, and Canada is far behind the incongruous "plan" that JT said will grow the economy, increase immigration and reduce CO2 emissions. Why would you even think the next tarted-up Liberal plan is going to work? Erin O'Toole has a plan, it won't work, Jagmeet has a more ambitious plan, it also won't work (also he will never have the chance to implement it). Internationally Joe Biden has a plan, no Carbon Tax, also not going to work. Seems to me using the Climate Plan as a reason not to vote for the Conservative (surely there are other reasons) is a lame/naive excuse to avoid confronting the past (and future) failures of Canadian governments (mostly Liberal) to achieve meaningful CO2 reductions?

The Canadian government is at a crossroads: it could either continue with the slow implementation of an inadequate climate plan, or adopt a recovery package that accelerates the transition to a zero emissions future. During the last election (October 2019), the government made a number of promises to scale up climate action, including exceeding the country’s 2030 NDC target and achieving net zero emissions by 2050, but has done little to deliver on this in the intervening months. The CAT rates Canada as ‘Insufficient’.

https://climateactiontracker.org/countries/canada/

[MolsonExport]

your post is a lame/naive excuse to avoid confronting the past (and future) problem that we face. The ecology is being destroyed and you would have us sit on our hands and to nothing?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I can't see the CPC getting a majority. And I agree their climate "plan" is a huge problem and one reason I just can't consider voting for them, even though other parts of their plan look pretty good.

I can stomach many things in their platform to punish the Liberals. Not that climate plan though. I'm debating whether it is tokenism or just a notch above.

That Climate plan is the reason they are not getting my vote this time.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I can stomach many things in their platform to punish the Liberals. Not that climate plan though. I'm debating whether it is tokenism or just a notch above.

That Climate plan is the reason they are not getting my vote this time.

If the CPC were to win a minority, do you think the other parties would vote down their changes to the carbon tax to implement their own climate plan? Surely they won't get support from any of the rest of Parliament?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

If the CPC were to win a minority, do you think the other parties would vote down their changes to the carbon tax to implement their own climate plan? Surely they won't get support from any of the rest of Parliament?

It's an interesting question that I hope we don't have to get the answer too.

It's a shame. O'Toole has moderated in many ways. He does have some good policy ideas. The Liberals are getting fat, dumb and lazy in office. But this plan is such a a clusterfuck...

[Airboy]

Exon /Imperial Oil are building a renewable fuel facility at it's Strathcona Plant site.
(They could build this on the old Shell refinery site across the road).
They will be using Blue Hydrogen.
https://www.reuters.com/business/ene...el-2021-08-25/

[Truenorth00]

Setting aside the plans to cut emissions, and the squabbling over energy exports, I wish there was more discussion on employment transition.

The pace of technological change is accelerating. There's no guarantee that we won't see battery breakthroughs that substantially increases the proportion of electric vehicles on the road sometime this decade. It's all well and good to cheer on more oil exports. What's the plan if it doesn't happen?

The collapse of coal employment and a whole set of support jobs (like railways that shipped coal) over the last 10-15 years, all over the developed world should serve as a warning to how quickly this might happen. I'd like to know how the parties would lead on this if such disruption happened on their watch.