Shift: London's Rapid Transit Initiative

[jaradthescot]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

Sorry Mayor Brown, you've now lost my vote for the next election.

Have you heard something behind closed doors, or just pessimistic? I myself am also pessimistic, but still fighting. I urge everyone to show up at the PPM tomorrow as well. It begins at 4, but Jesse Helmer anticipates it will go quite late (apparently one for last council went until 3am).

[MolsonExport]

very pessimistic, probably since since the mayors office has, over many administrations, long been acting at the whim of developers. Which explains why London is saddled with umpteen big box barflands on the fringes, whereas the inner parts of the city are hollowed out. While other cities are reversing the donut trend, London is encouraging it.

[jaradthescot]

I hope you speak up at the PPM tomorrow then. We need everyone we can applying pressure on this council. Regardless of Matt Brown (I am equally disappointed in his about-face) I know a few on council (4-5) are strongly in favour of LRT. There are also quite a number on the fence. Remember that back in November the vote went 15-0 for the LRT hybrid model. If we can sway just a few of those on-the-fence councilors back to LRT we could very easily win this vote. Not by a wide margin, but at least an 8-7 majority.

Phil Squire seems amenable to LRT. I talked with Anna Hopkins yesterday and she is personally pro-LRT but acknowledges it's difficult to convince her riding's demographics of the benefits of LRT. If you put them with the 5 pro-LRT voices I heard at the debate earlier this month, we have 7 pro-LRT. I think there's a realistic chance we could win this vote, but we can't give up.

It's not likely, but it's not impossible (or a foregone conclusion, as you said).

[MrSlippery519]

I unfortunately wont be able to make it tomorrow night which really bothers me as I wanted my voice to be heard. My wife works and no way I am bringing 2 kids along with me.

Please anyone that is attending please speak up in a thought out manner. As Jared mentioned we really only need a couple of those on the fence councilors to vote LRT. Please remind everyone of the 15-0 vote back in November as well, why suddenly has that changed, I get the impression that Matt Brown is influencing some members for what ever reason we are not privy to.

I am extremely pessimistic as well since it seems like Matt Brown is the one heading this new BRT direction. He was the guy that had vision and now has none is seems.

I did email Anna Hopkins to voice my opinion as she is my councilor so I hope she can help express some of my thoughts and can be counted on to vote for LRT.

[Stevo26]

I just got back from the public participation meeting on rapid transit. While I wasn't around long enough to be able to hear all of the opinions, what little I did hear seemed to suggest that most people of the people who spoke are against a BRT-only system and want light rail. It wasn't just millennials who favoured LRT, but a wide cross-section of people.

Many chided the city for timidity in approaching infrastructure projects that aren't risk-free and politically safe. Good on them, I say.

I addressed council briefly and in a nutshell, here is what I said about the BRT vs, LRT issue:

The population is aging, and as people age they develop health problems that force them to give up their cars. They will need and want good public transit. Trains will offer a smooth ride compared to the often harsh and jouncy ride busses do, and few older people want to ride a bus that is uncomfortable.

Millennials don't want cars. They want good public transit. They see BRT as a development of an old-school technology that relies on motor vehicles that need fossil fuels to run and therefore can pollute the air. LRT lines use clean, efficient electricity as a source of power.

Millennials will not want to come to live and work in London, nor will they stay if BRT is all that is offered. Millennials are attracted to cities that have sophisticated and efficient LRT systems and see them as progressive and modern places that are worth living in.

LRT is cheaper to run because trains and permanent way (tracks) are built to last longer. Busses and roads require more frequent maintenance and repairs.

I also asked council a few simple questions: If LRT such a bad thing, then why do the majority of European cities prefer it over BRT? Why are many large US cities opting for LRT? Why are several other Canadian cities building LRT systems and not BRT?

I also pointed out that building BRT-only lines with the idea that LRT will come later if ridership justifies it is a bad strategy. The K-W region built an in-city expressway that was initially little used but became a major and very busy thoroughfare as the city's population grew. London is expected to add roughly 100,000 new residents over the next 25 years or so. So it's better to plan for the future and build now with the expectation that demand to use certain kinds of infrastructure will increase over time.

I also reminded city council that the decision they make will cement the city's future and reputation for the next 30 years and beyond.

[GreatTallNorth2]

^Well done, great points

[haljackey]

I got to the meeting around 5. The council chambers were so packed that they put me into a committee room to watch it on a TV (which was also packed). They then brought groups who wanted to speak up to the chambers.
-I wasn't even mad. Happy to see that so many people cared enough about this public participation meeting.

I left at 6:45 as there was a hour long dinner break at that time. By then most people had left anyway.

I didn't speak as I felt as though my concerns were already noted multiple times by other citizens.

Now we wait and see what happens...

[K85]

EDIt - was upset, mah bad

[K85]

.

[MolsonExport]

fuck you London.

sorry, I am just soooo pissed off and extremely disappointed.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Lesson learned - never get your hopes up with London city council. I thought we voted for a team of progressive councillors. I actually thought Matt Brown was behind LRT, but they chose to do the easy thing. Very disappointing, but if the BRT plan goes through it will be a huge improvement, especially the downtown tunnel.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

fuck you London.

sorry, I am just soooo pissed off and extremely disappointed.

If council screw the pooch on the RT project I know I will be retiring elsewhere when the time comes.

Somehow I have this unshakeable feeling that council are going to go for what they think is the 'safe' option - i.e. BRT only. Bean-counters like Art Zuidema won't let the city do anything else. People like him derive their sense of power and control from the ability to deny and say 'no' to things, rather than saying 'yes' and making positive choices that could push London ahead instead of allowing it to remain as a backwater swamp of little repute.

I've encountered a few nay-sayers on Facebook who are against LRT. They argue that the construction process will decimate local businesses and snarl up traffic. A lot of these people seem to be labouring under the notion that BRT is just a matter of painting lines on pavement to demarcate where the BRT units are to go.

They don't realize that the $500 million cost of the proposed BRT system will buy far more paint than is needed for the job. BRT is not a construction-free process. If the concept drawings are anything to go by, some BRT stops will be located in the middle of the wider thoroughfares.
All of which will result in significant, if short-lived disruption to traffic and businesses.

BRT also requires dedicated busways in some areas to properly segregate cars from busses. Without these, BRT can't offer rapid service. Streets will also have to be widened. Very little of the budget will go to buy the articulated busses needed to support the BRT system. Most of it will be spent on roadwork, stations and other support infrastructure.

As to traffic disruptions, well, they happen regularly in any given spring and summer when road repairs and upgrades have to be done, and they affect businesses and drivers equally. And London traffic is already pretty snarled up, what with badly synchronized traffic lights.

Another misconception people seem to have is that BRT or LRT will entirely replace the existing system. All it will do is function as an enhancement to the existing system. Ordinary busses will operate on most of the regular routes which will act as feeders for the RT system.
This is actually a concept I advocated in an article I wrote for the Free Press about 20 years ago.

[jaradthescot]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Lesson learned - never get your hopes up with London city council. I thought we voted for a team of progressive councillors. I actually thought Matt Brown was behind LRT, but they chose to do the easy thing. Very disappointing, but if the BRT plan goes through it will be a huge improvement, especially the downtown tunnel.

It's definitely a more progressive council than the past. There are a few councilors I am exceedingly proud of. Namely Mo Salih, Jesse Helmer, and Stephen Turner. Virginia Ridley and Jared Zaifman of course also voted LRT, and Phil Squire voted against it but I respect his constant interaction and thoughtfulness towards the issues.

Unfortunately, that still leaves 8 councilors and a mayor. A couple councilors are tolerable, but a few (Mike van Holst, Maureen Cassidy) are as bad as any past councils. And Bill Armstrong.. oh Lord don't even get me started on that. After 3 hours of wave after wave of support for LRT he stands up and says "I think we heard today from the public gallery overwhelming support for BRT." Never have I seen such disregard for public opinion as to not only ignore it, but to rewrite it entirely.

[haljackey]

Booooooooo

While many are complaining, I am coming into acceptance of BRT. Is that sad?

I mean, if Joe Fontana or Paul Chang were mayor, I doubt we'd get any transit improvements.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Booooooooo

While many are complaining, I am coming into acceptance of BRT. Is that sad?

I mean, if Joe Fontana or Paul Chang were mayor, I doubt we'd get any transit improvements.

While a BRT system would not be the end of the world if it were implemented, it's not the best solution for London.

You're forgetting that we elected Brown and the members of city council to serve us, not dictate to us.

While they have a responsibility to manage and spend tax revenues wisely, they also have a duty to avoid deliberately disregarding the will of the people for the sake of avoiding uncomfortable political fallout, or for the sake of pleasing vocal and hyper-conservative, nay-saying penny- pinchers who think that any public money spent on anything they don't agree with is necessarily wasteful and that calamities of all sorts will befall us if we spend a nickel on anything.

[GreatTallNorth2]

The thing that bothers me the most is that Brown and the administration is not telling us WHY they changed from Hybrid to BRT. They seem to indicate that they got feedback from upper levels of gov't that we wouldnt get the money for Hybrid, but are keeping it secret. Why?! There should be transparency. If we are considered a second class city by the feds and province, we should know this so we can vote accordingly in the future.

[jaradthescot]

On the contrary, they keep insisting that the upper levels of government were "extremely receptive" and encouraging. Perhaps lies, but at this point the implication is that we could have got the funding.

One thing that just dawned on me yesterday while watching the debate. Jesse Helmer is the politician that made waves last election by getting Kathleen Wynne to fundraise for his ward campaign. I don't know what specific connection he has with Kathleen Wynne/Liberal Party, but if he felt that we could get the funding from them, I am pretty sure we could have.

Edit: It appears that he is a "family friend." Article here

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by K85

If I could have managed the day off, I'd have been there with a damn bull horn.........

WHAT KIND OF SHIT THINKING MAKES YOU WANT TO BUILD FOR THE NOW, NOT THE FUTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????

Christ..... we voted for these rookies to take over the OLD way of thinking, and here we are the fuck again...

I hate this fucking city. HATE IT

Once I can convince the misses to leave, we're fucking out of here. She refuses Toronto, but with KW now on a proper path, that may work.

Fuck the 7 who only see being rejected. ASK AT LEAST.

dicks.

EDIT - OH FOR FUCKS SAKE!!!!!!!!

"Pat Maloney
@PatatLFPress

City politicians vote 11-5to pursue $500M bus-only rapid transit system, droppng light rail. Ridley, Helmer, Turner, Salih, Zaifman opposed"

I echo your frustration.

[K85]

yup. was a little upset...

regret that

[Pimpmasterdac]

Now that it seems imminent BRT is the way London is going, how committed to implementing the plan will London be? Will buses be running in mixed traffic or will they have dedicated lanes?

While the big debate has been BRT vs. LRT, IMO many in the general public don't know the level of expropriation that will be required. Making Wellington 6 lanes from White Oaks to Horton, and Oxford 6 lanes will require some substantial property acquisition. Lets see how committed council will be when those affected start to make a stink...