Ride-hailing in Metro Vancouver: Uber, Lyft, Sidecar - emerging technologies

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

idk why anyone thought the NDP would bring in ride sharing. NDP are more funded by Taxis than the Liberals were. plus the NDP is historically anti anything non-government controlled. i.e. the NDP generally don't like free market.

remember, ICBC was the NDPs baby...

Both parties have received donations from taxi companies. Usually the party in power has more luck in receiving donations (since they can make rules immediately). I don't even think the amounts are that important. It's more about the votes in certain ridings.

This search of Elections BC data has all the donations:

https://contributions.electionsbc.gov.bc...&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=

You can clearly see the money was flowing into the BC Liberals while they were in power.

More importantly, Uber started in 2009. I believe their temporary operation in Vancouver was setup in around 2012 before it was shut down, by the Liberals. They had all the time in the world to allow them to operate, under whatever rules they wanted to, but they didn't. This is 90% on them, and 10% on the NDP for dragging their heels about a year longer than they needed to.

And sorry, randomly throwing ICBC into a post doesn't somehow make you look smarter.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Class 4 is a real barrier for regular people who want to be Uber drivers, but apparently the province is still going to insist on it.

It certainly gives existing cabbies a huge leg up, with little benefit to the customers that I can see.

I'd be ok with that bc if you limit the potential labour pool you are less likely to treat drivers like crap and more likely not pay them less than minimum wage.

The researchers found profit from ride-hail driving to be “very low”. On an hourly basis, the median profit was $3.37 per hour, with 74% of drivers earning less than the minimum wage in the state where they operate.

....

So what does the study tell us about the ride-hailing business model? “It tells us that it’s a shitty place to work,” says Mark Tluszcz, co-founder and CEO of Mangrove Capital Partners who has described the gig economy model as the modern day sweatshop, and says his VC firm made a conscious decision not to invest in gig economy companies because the model is exploitative.

“It tells you that it’s a great place if you’re a company. It’s really a poor place to be an employee or be a worker."

...

At the end of the day there are a certain amount of fixed costs [for drivers],” says Tluszcz. “You have to buy a car, you have to get insurance, you have to pay for gas… And if you as an intermediary, which those platforms are, are taking an increasing amount of commission — 10%, 15%, now 20 in most of their markets — and then you’re using the price of the trip as a way of beating your competitor… then you as a driver are sitting there with basically all of your fixed costs and your income is going down and frankly the only way to cover your costs is to spend more hours in the car.

“Which is frankly what’s clearly illustrated by this study. These people have to spend so much time to cover their costs when you break it down to an hourly revenue, it’s a pitiful amount. "

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

I'd be ok with that bc if you limit the potential labour pool you are less likely to treat drivers like crap and more likely not pay them less than minimum wage.

I believe the BC rules will also mandate some level of minimum wage for drivers. I'm not sure what that will look like given the expense of operating a vehicle needs to be mixed in.

I've stated already that Uber isn't some kind of magical fix. It's a technology for getting rides. Drivers are paid shit if they bother to do the math, and the company is losing billions of dollars per year. In order for it to be sustainable, they are going to have to charge taxicab level fares. We might even see that from Day 1 in BC.

But, back to the point, what exactly does making all of these drivers get a class 4 do for society in general? Or is it just another hoop to jump through?

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

But, back to the point, what exactly does making all of these drivers get a class 4 do for society in general? Or is it just another hoop to jump through?

By not having a low barrier to entry for rideshare driving you limit the amount of new drivers coming online and you avoid the externalities with flooding the market.

Combining that with a minimum wage for rideshare, like in NYC, would help avoid the negative effects we are seeing now (Los angeles uber cut driver pay recently. even NYC's law is being challenged by lyft). Even if you don't look at the negative effects of unfettered rideshare wrt traffic flows (increased traffic, less transit commitment/usage), unregulated rideshare in north America is fundamentally exploitative.

Face it, some people don't have a choice not to do rideshare as a career if the barrier is low. If you don't see that, you might as say renting a home is a "fun, wacky phase of your life."

In New York City, the unrestricted growth of these companies put serious financial strain on the city’s taxi drivers, and has made it hard for all drivers to compete and earn a decent living.

Economists at the New School and the University of California Berkeley published a report in July with some limited pay data, and discovered something alarming: Driving for ride-hailing apps in New York City is not really a part-time gig for people who want to earn extra cash.

More than half of their drivers are ferrying around passengers on a full-time basis, and about half of all drivers are supporting families with children on that income. But their earnings are so low that 40 percent of drivers qualified for Medicaid, and about 18 percent qualified for food stamps.

[jlousa]

I'm okay with class 4, it's not that much of a determent to get. Looking at the requirements for class 4 they are all reasonable and should be met for anyone driving commercially. Think the NDP did the right thing in keeping it a requirement, just don't impose zones, quotas, nor minimal pricing and get it going already.

[dandor31]

I totally am fine with the Class 4 requirement. You're job is to transport people safely and most people with Class 5 licences could do with a refresher on the rules of the road. I think we can hold Uber drivers to the same standards as taxi drivers.

I'm happy about the removal of geographic limits and the limits on number of drivers. This is a benefit to both taxis and rideshares.

It certainly isn't doom and gloom. I think once a large enough group of people get their Class 4 licence, Uber won't operate much differently that other cities.

I wouldn't be opposed to the same BC minimum wage applying to drivers as well. I think the whole idea of Uber treating drivers as "independent contractors" is a bit of BS. It shouldn't be a race to the bottom for employment standards.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

don't get me wrong, the liberals certainly no better. in power almost 2 decades and they were mostly in the pockets of well everyone.

but i find it funny how all these people ran to the NDP for ride sharing. i don't know why everyone thought they'd all of a sudden jump in. the NDP arent free market fans, and nor are they known for making decisions fast.

i just don't know why anyone expected anything different. i would be surprised if it happened before the next election year. maybe in it, but i'm doubtful before. the election is coming up to 2 years, and i remember everyone drooling for Christmas 2017.

i couldn't care less either way. i drive in my own car when i want or walk and have 0 interest in this "ridesharing" that has turned more into taxis.

[flipper316]

https://globalnews.ca/news/5153735/b-c-g...for-ridesharing-drivers-but-is-it-safer/

[retro_orange]

With the way gas prices are, class 4 requirements and the below minimum wage pay from Uber, will anyone actually bother to drive for them now?

[GeeCee]

Comparing crash stats for class 4 vs class 5 without taking into consideration the amount of time spent on the road is just dishonest.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by dandor31

I totally am fine with the Class 4 requirement. You're job is to transport people safely and most people with Class 5 licences could do with a refresher on the rules of the road. I think we can hold Uber drivers to the same standards as taxi drivers.

I'm happy about the removal of geographic limits and the limits on number of drivers. This is a benefit to both taxis and rideshares.

It certainly isn't doom and gloom. I think once a large enough group of people get their Class 4 licence, Uber won't operate much differently that other cities.

I wouldn't be opposed to the same BC minimum wage applying to drivers as well. I think the whole idea of Uber treating drivers as "independent contractors" is a bit of BS. It shouldn't be a race to the bottom for employment standards.

Agree.

However, I hope Uber never operates here like it does elsewhere. They treat drivers in a predatory way under the concept of "independent contractors." The best perspective I have heard is the comparison of Uber with PayDay Loan companies. Sure its a service. Sure everyone participates of their own free will. So did the coal miners of yesteryear.

I run a relatively small firm that adapts and reacts quickly based on the projects we have underway. One aspect of this is employing several people as "independent contractors." We pay them well and provide monetary assistance with things like eye care and dental, but it still makes me uncomfortable: mostly based upon their lack of job security and my inability to provide a long term career path. I know one thing for sure, they would all like full time work, and neither they nor I consider that its all good participation in the "Sharing Economy."

dandor31 points to the things I favour: mainly a true overhaul of the Taxi (incl. Ride share) industry; and the regulation of Ride Share so it functions for the benefit of all three of its direct participants.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

With the way gas prices are, class 4 requirements and the below minimum wage pay from Uber, will anyone actually bother to drive for them now?

I believe the government is going to mandate minimum pay levels for Uber drivers as well.

The cost will be the same (maybe more?) than cabs. At least there will be an app and hopefully enough cars to get a ride whenever you need one.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I believe the government is going to mandate minimum pay levels for Uber drivers as well.

The cost will be the same (maybe more?) than cabs. At least there will be an app and hopefully enough cars to get a ride whenever you need one.

I don't think it will work that way. Metro Vancouver has an automated, frequent, rapid transit network, and ride sharing can not compete with that. So in Metro Vancouver ride sharing is only going to fill the gap between taking a bus and owning a car.

Ride-sharing/Uber for the rest of the province outside of Metro Vancouver might kick-the-can down the road for real rapid/frequent transit improvements, especially in places like Victoria, Kelowna and Kamloops. It might actually allow people to give up their cars.

Which means that once the ride-sharing box is open, it can't be closed again, otherwise it will strand those that gave up their vehicles outside of Metro Vancouver.


As for Class 4 or not, I think that is not a reasonable argument the province is making. A Class 5 is sufficient for driving your own family, relatives, and school trips. A Class 4 might make sense for any vehicle that can seat more than 8 people, such as 10-15 passenger vans, as there is more skill required to drive them.

Fold the Class 4 restricted into the Class 5 and call it done, or issue a separate "Private Transport License" permanently attached to the vehicle that has to be renewed annually to do ride sharing.

[djmk]

In my recent travels in Mexico, California and Vegas, I found Uber more expensive than a taxi. And it can be really hard to get an Uber if there are no drivers around. I got screwed outside Avaya Stadium in San Jose trying to find an Uber once every one left.

But it's ease of use is unquestionably easier (unless you don't have data or wifi or the GPS is off, then it's a bit of a nightmare)

[whatnext]

Uber and Lyft employees are planning a large strike tomorrow just ahead of Uber’s IPO. Just reinforces the evidence that driving is marginal:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/03/tech/uber-lyft-driver-strike/index.html

[retro_orange]

I think there will be a surge of people signing up to drive for them once it's in Vancouver but will quickly drop off as the wage will not cover the costs of the car maintenance, gas or time waiting for a ride.

[GeeCee]

Given the licensing and insurance requirements, I'm not sure how big that surge will be, exactly..

[scryer]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Uber and Lyft employees are planning a large strike tomorrow just ahead of Uber’s IPO. Just reinforces the evidence that driving is marginal:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/03/tech/uber-lyft-driver-strike/index.html

I feel like a lot of those folks are confusing uber as a full-time career as opposed to a convenient side-gig.... At least that was before the government got involved.

[jlousa]

I think uber and lyft were supposed to be a lot like airbnb and be part time but reality is its turned in a full time jig for most people. I've never taken an uber while travelling
by anyone that it wasnt their full time job. g

[casper]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I believe the BC rules will also mandate some level of minimum wage for drivers. I'm not sure what that will look like given the expense of operating a vehicle needs to be mixed in.

I've stated already that Uber isn't some kind of magical fix. It's a technology for getting rides. Drivers are paid shit if they bother to do the math, and the company is losing billions of dollars per year. In order for it to be sustainable, they are going to have to charge taxicab level fares. We might even see that from Day 1 in BC.

But, back to the point, what exactly does making all of these drivers get a class 4 do for society in general? Or is it just another hoop to jump through?

The way uber becomes sustainable is autonomous vehicles. That is the goal. They are ok having a loss while they are building scale and developing uber 2.0.

As for the class 4 I don't see what the issue is. That is the class of license you require to operate a taxi, ambulance, or small bus. Basically what is required to be a commercial driver.