Calgary SSP gay life

[RWin]

Originally Posted by Allan83

I get that there are people who will pick on others who are different, or who are vulnerable, but it seems to me that there’s something else going on with homophobia, and I don’t really understand what it is.

It's called bullying. I don't get it either. I guess it gives them some sense of power over others but I'm not sure where that need comes from. Is it learned behaviour or somehow built in?

My fear is that a bully can't unlearn their behaviour very easily.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Allan83

Btw, homophobia is another gay issue I fundamentally don’t understand. Why would anyone care if someone else is gay? If I was interested in woman and found out she was gay I might be disappointed, but as a straight man why would I care if another man is gay? I get that there are people who will pick on others who are different, or who are vulnerable, but it seems to me that there’s something else going on with homophobia, and I don’t really understand what it is.

You're approaching it from a logical standpoint: after all, the more gay men there are, the less competition you have for the straight women - so in fact straight men should LOVE gay men... in a sense. Hell, logically speaking straight men (presuming they are interested in sex) should want all women to be "sluts" and therefore more available for sex, and yet the term is still widely used as a pejorative.

Problem is, people aren't logical, and least of all when it comes to sex and sexuality.

Homophobia is about many things. Power/bullying, fear of anything different, and in many cases insecurity - an awful lot of homophobes are secretly afraid of their own homosexual tendencies. A lot of psychologists (and myself) believe that at our core, everyone is basically bisexual - it's just a matter of where on the scale an individual fits. So-called "straight" people would be 99% one way, strictly "gay" people 99% the other - but there's always at least a remote bit of interest in something "different". Show me a straight man who hasn't at least once found another dude attractive (in some sense) and I'll show you someone with severe emotional issues and strong denial. The problem is, a lot of otherwise straight people interpret this as "omg I might be gay!!" and have a massive over-reaction to it.

Homophobia is no different than any other prejudice, really - except ANY of us could secretly be gay. It's not like being black, or muslim, or something. These things either manifest themselves visibly, or are a clear obvious choice. But being gay? I mean, it's kinda like a disease, right? You could just wake up one day and BAM! You're Gay!

That kind of thinking is what drives it from mere prejudice into a whole different realm of scary.

Also, we still live in an incredibly puritanical society. Anything sex-related is still "icky" in a lot of ways to a lot of people. So having to think of someone else's sex life is.. potentially unpleasant. Now, when you (as our potential homophobe) meet a straight guy, you don't really think much about his sex life. You assume it's similar to yours, therefore OK and not icky - after all, what *I* do is normal and healthy, but what *others* do is perverse and gross, right? But then you meet a gay guy? Instantly your brain thinks "buttsex" and you imagine yourself being involved. Incidentally, this is probably also why most homophobes have much less of an issue with lesbians. While it definitely happens, in my experience gay-bashing is rare against women.

Of course it gets even more nuanced, because homophobia just doesn't seem that strong amongst women. I suspect there's the whole machismo thing (or lack thereof) happening there.

Just some armchair psychology on a boring Monday afternoon. I'm obviously ignoring religious/cultural/societal influences here. Just trying to determine why "gay" is SOOOO much worse than a hundred other proscribed groups.

[Surrealplaces]

This thread needs some sort of lingo table. Between furry bears, and bear cubs and twinks, etc.. I have no clue what people are talking about lol!

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Back to the gay topic... I went to the back lot last night, and it seems like the twinks are invading!

[Surrealplaces]

I think it all ties back to an very basic, but unfortunate condition that many people seem to have everywhere.....not liking people that are different than themselves. I always wonder what would happen if there were no gays, or people of color, and or any religions.....who would the haters then hate? I think they would still hate, just a question of who.

Originally Posted by Allan83

I get that there are people who will pick on others who are different, or who are vulnerable, but it seems to me that there’s something else going on with homophobia, and I don’t really understand what it is.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

This thread needs some sort of lingo table. Between furry bears, and bear cubs and twinks, etc.. I have no clue what people are talking about lol!

I've watched enough TV/movies and had friends over the years to keep me in the loop that I know probably 90-95% of gay slang. Reading the Skybar on SSP and befriending some SSP members over the years have also helped in this regard. heheh

but for you I found a "gay slang dictionary"
http://www.odps.org/glossword/index.php?a=index&d=8 have fun

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

I think it all ties back to an very basic, but unfortunate condition that many people seem to have everywhere.....not liking people that are different than themselves. I always wonder what would happen if there were no gays, or people of color, and or any religions.....who would the haters then hate? I think they would still hate, just a question of who.

One expression my generation has taught the world is that no matter what:
Haters Gonna Hate!

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

This thread needs some sort of lingo table. Between furry bears, and bear cubs and twinks, etc.. I have no clue what people are talking about lol!

Google, my friend. And if you really want to blow your mind, I can come up with some other words that aren't about the gay community, but you probably would be a bit "huh" about.

Start with "furries".

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Allan83

I get that there are people who will pick on others who are different, or who are vulnerable, but it seems to me that there’s something else going on with homophobia, and I don’t really understand what it is.

In my opinion and from experience, most homophobes are gay themselves. In fact, I've ended up "being with" guys who bullied me in front of their friends at school. It was really screwed up. But yeah. I've written an essay or two on the topic. I'd say, from a pure guess, that about 80 - 90% of homophobes in Canada are gay themselves, except for maybe the really deeply religious muslims here. The other 10 - 20% are the ones who had christian religious dogma propaganda shoved down their throats from the cradle, and the ones that had super-macho overcompensating closet-case dads. I estimate such a high percentage because in a society as socially developed as ours, there's very little reason to be homophobic other than fear of who you are and what you've been bullshitted into believing is wrong.

I was a homophobe before coming out of the closet as well. Obviously I did it to "prove" I wasn't gay to everyone, also because (like most closet guys) I thought it was impossible to be gay and still be a strong, masculine, athletic guy... because all we saw(in the early 2000s) in media of gay men were just flaming fashion designers and whatnot. Most guys I know around my age didn't personally know or had met any other gay people before, so all we had was the stereotypes perpetuated on TV, and obviously we didn't want to have to act like that, so we stayed in the closet until we learned differently. So yeah... I guess that is my two cents on that.

[ZeDgE]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Start with "furries".

LOL! Indeed.

I must be pretty versed as I know all the lingo being thrown around. Hey, I even went to pride this year with some friend.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

In my opinion and from experience, most homophobes are gay themselves. In fact, I've ended up "being with" guys who bullied me in front of their friends at school. It was really screwed up. But yeah. I've written an essay or two on the topic. I'd say, from a pure guess, that about 80 - 90% of homophobes in Canada are gay themselves, except for maybe the really deeply religious muslims here. The other 10 - 20% are the ones who had christian religious dogma propaganda shoved down their throats from the cradle, and the ones that had super-macho overcompensating closet-case dads. I estimate such a high percentage because in a society as socially developed as ours, there's very little reason to be homophobic other than fear of who you are and what you've been bullshitted into believing is wrong.

I was a homophobe before coming out of the closet as well. Obviously I did it to "prove" I wasn't gay to everyone, also because (like most closet guys) I thought it was impossible to be gay and still be a strong, masculine, athletic guy... because all we saw(in the early 2000s) in media of gay men were just flaming fashion designers and whatnot. Most guys I know around my age didn't personally know or had met any other gay people before, so all we had was the stereotypes perpetuated on TV, and obviously we didn't want to have to act like that, so we stayed in the closet until we learned differently. So yeah... I guess that is my two cents on that.

I agree with that.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

In my opinion and from experience, most homophobes are gay themselves. In fact, I've ended up "being with" guys who bullied me in front of their friends at school. It was really screwed up. But yeah. I've written an essay or two on the topic. I'd say, from a pure guess, that about 80 - 90% of homophobes in Canada are gay themselves, except for maybe the really deeply religious muslims here. The other 10 - 20% are the ones who had christian religious dogma propaganda shoved down their throats from the cradle, and the ones that had super-macho overcompensating closet-case dads. I estimate such a high percentage because in a society as socially developed as ours, there's very little reason to be homophobic other than fear of who you are and what you've been bullshitted into believing is wrong.

I was a homophobe before coming out of the closet as well. Obviously I did it to "prove" I wasn't gay to everyone, also because (like most closet guys) I thought it was impossible to be gay and still be a strong, masculine, athletic guy... because all we saw(in the early 2000s) in media of gay men were just flaming fashion designers and whatnot. Most guys I know around my age didn't personally know or had met any other gay people before, so all we had was the stereotypes perpetuated on TV, and obviously we didn't want to have to act like that, so we stayed in the closet until we learned differently. So yeah... I guess that is my two cents on that.

I completely agree with your sentiment, but your numbers are way off. Understandably skewed by experience, mind you, but still... For those numbers to be true, at least 50% of the general population would have to be gay. Or to phrase it differently, I think you're underestimating just how prevalent homophobia still is in our society. Or perhaps we're using the terms differently.

Now, the "strong" homophobes? The ones who march about with screaming "faggot!" and beating up people? Sure. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the majority were gay. But there's still quite a lot of milder homophobia out there.

"I have no problem with gay people, but marriage is between a man and a woman only", "Gays are cool and all, but why should my kids have to see two men kissing in public", "There's no straight pride parade!" - in my books, that's homophobia. And it's amazing how often I hear it from otherwise intelligent people.

I did find your comment about masculine perception interesting. That was never something I'd even think would keep people in the closet, but I guess it makes "sense".

[kw5150]

I was a homophobe too, until it started affecting my brain in a really bad way (self hate).....then I decided it was time to come out. I was basically scaring everyone away and out of my life, and it was a very lonely time. I actually felt like i had to tear myself away from the original person / personality. Weird!

I did not fit into the gay world and also did not fit into the straight world. Awkward! I became that stare-ey guy in the corner that creeped you out.....not a good look for anyone. Now, thank whatever, I am out of that phase. Definitely some serious time wasted in a life that could have been much more productive at that time.

Now I just want to live. Before I didnt.

[ST1]

Very interesting thread. I’ve read through the last few pages and just wanted to comment on the whole discussion about gay villages and Vancouver vs Toronto vs Calgary, etc…
Not that Toronto and Vancouver don’t have a lot to offer as a city, but there’s no reason gays can’t enjoy smaller cities like Calgary. Straight people do, so why wouldn’t gays?
Larger centers like Vancouver and Toronto have long attracted gays because in times when people were less accepting, those were the places that had significant gay population and thus kept attracting more - it was a snowball effect.

However now that society is more accepting of gays, and this continues to improve, you should start to see gay communities flourish in smaller centers across the country. I’m not gay, but I love living here in Calgary, and if I was gay, I would want to stay. 20 years ago however it probably wouldn’t have been a good option, but today, hopefully it would be.

[kw5150]

Did you know that the 17th avenue comittee (or whatever they are called) denied the addition of pride flags to 17th avenue because they thought it would hurt the "macho" street mentality? A while ago, they wanted to make that the gay district. Calgary aint that acceptin' yet. That also may have been a reason that the parade was re-routed.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

In my opinion and from experience, most homophobes are gay themselves. In fact, I've ended up "being with" guys who bullied me in front of their friends at school. It was really screwed up. But yeah. I've written an essay or two on the topic. I'd say, from a pure guess, that about 80 - 90% of homophobes in Canada are gay themselves, except for maybe the really deeply religious muslims here. The other 10 - 20% are the ones who had christian religious dogma propaganda shoved down their throats from the cradle, and the ones that had super-macho overcompensating closet-case dads. I estimate such a high percentage because in a society as socially developed as ours, there's very little reason to be homophobic other than fear of who you are and what you've been bullshitted into believing is wrong.

I was a homophobe before coming out of the closet as well. Obviously I did it to "prove" I wasn't gay to everyone, also because (like most closet guys) I thought it was impossible to be gay and still be a strong, masculine, athletic guy... because all we saw(in the early 2000s) in media of gay men were just flaming fashion designers and whatnot. Most guys I know around my age didn't personally know or had met any other gay people before, so all we had was the stereotypes perpetuated on TV, and obviously we didn't want to have to act like that, so we stayed in the closet until we learned differently. So yeah... I guess that is my two cents on that.

Good post. Thanks for that. This makes a lot of sense to me, and really helps me to understand. This is slightly off topic but I just had a bit of an a-ha moment. I used to think that it would be great if we could get to a point where we wouldn’t need gay pride parades, and other public celebrations of sexuality. We don’t have heterosexual pride parades, after all, so wouldn’t the end goal be to not need gay pride parades? Don’t they, in a way, marginalize instead of include the gay community? But I see now that this point of view really fundamentally misunderstands the issue. Gay kids are always going to be in the small minority. Statistically that’s just how it is, and inevitably it’s always going to be difficult for them to understand and come to grips with their sexuality. It’s hard enough for straight people, who are in the large majority and have many people around them going through similar things, after all. Some gays will always become homophobes, for example, as part of their process of dealing with their sexuality. Denial is a coping mechanism all humans are subject to in many areas. So, we’re always going to need very public and visible ways of getting information and support to gay kids to help them deal with this process. This probably seems obvious to most of you, but somehow it hadn’t quiet clicked for me. I think the realization that many homophobes are probably gay themselves, or at least substantially gay, really highlighted this for me. They’re not an external factor that just needs to be educated and then they’ll go away. They are internal to this issue and highlight just how difficult it is for many gay kids to deal with coming to the understanding that they're gay. A-ha!

[Doug_Cgy]

Originally Posted by kw5150

Did you know that the 17th avenue comittee (or whatever they are called) denied the addition of pride flags to 17th avenue because they thought it would hurt the "macho" street mentality? A while ago, they wanted to make that the gay district. Calgary aint that acceptin' yet. That also may have been a reason that the parade was re-routed.

As someone who spent the last 4 years on the Pride Board, I can confirm this wasn't the case. It was a matter of the city trying to streamline most events to Stephen Ave where it would have less impact on daily life. We could, in theory, still have the parade on 17th, but even on a Sunday the city would charge for lost parking revenues (ridiculous) and only allow the parade to take one half of the street. We had some great discussions with the Uptown 17th BRZ last year, so you never know what you'll see in the future.

Personally, I don't want to see 17th Ave turn into a "Gay Village", although I would be thrilled to see a few rainbow flags along the avenue (not just on the windows), to show it's an inclusive area.

[Tarsus]

I'm going to add some more observations from the straight crowd. Is there even a need for a 'gay village' these days? I suspect (and could be wrong) that they were started at a time when society was less tolerant. Kind of a safe haven for gays.

[Chadillaccc]

So you honestly think anyone and everyone in Craft, Cowboys, or any other "straight place" other than Ming would be cool if I made out with my boyfriend or he sat on my lap all/part of the night like any straight couple does? Because you'd be wrong if that's what you think. Gay bars/clubs still serve a pretty integral purpose to the survival of a proud and equally entitled gay community.


Disclaimer: I obviously know there's not much lap-sitting at bars and clubs... but you get what I mean.

[kw5150]

Yes, but they refused to support pride flags on the street.

Originally Posted by Doug_Cgy

As someone who spent the last 4 years on the Pride Board, I can confirm this wasn't the case. It was a matter of the city trying to streamline most events to Stephen Ave where it would have less impact on daily life. We could, in theory, still have the parade on 17th, but even on a Sunday the city would charge for lost parking revenues (ridiculous) and only allow the parade to take one half of the street. We had some great discussions with the Uptown 17th BRZ last year, so you never know what you'll see in the future.

Personally, I don't want to see 17th Ave turn into a "Gay Village", although I would be thrilled to see a few rainbow flags along the avenue (not just on the windows), to show it's an inclusive area.

[kw5150]

+1.

Originally Posted by chadillaccc

so you honestly think anyone and everyone in craft, cowboys, or any other "straight place" other than ming would be cool if i made out with my boyfriend or he sat on my lap all/part of the night like any straight couple does? Because you'd be wrong if that's what you think. Gay bars/clubs still serve a pretty integral purpose to the survival of a proud and equally entitled gay community.


Disclaimer: I obviously know there's not much lap-sitting at bars and clubs... But you get what i mean.