Queen's Park Politics - Page 12

Wharn · #**221** Posted **Oct 5, 2011, 6:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon716

I'm a moderator, not a referee. You're free to post what you want, and I have my own opinions as well. The only thing I mod is when behavior gets personal and attacks happen, otherwise this is a free forum where you can opine as you wish.

Fair enough. I'm just used to seeing mods who kinda sit in the background.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon716

Besides, I think my last post was a well reasoned, strongly backed statement for why Hudak's issue with the tax credit is utter bullshit. Its a tax credit to get qualified people in a job. What possibly can there be wrong with that? Hudak has mis-characterized the program as a foreign hiring program - it isn't - and he's throwing mud left and right just to see what sticks. He pretends the job that get this credit are low skill so he can scare blue collar voters - the jobs aren't low skilled jobs at all, it is typically skilled work with specific shortages.

It might not be a foreign hiring program, But it IS a market distortion. Obviously if firms are willing to hire new Canadians with a subsidy, they do not consider them completely useless- if they did not value their labour they would not hire them at all. But, they may see a lower value-added per hour of labour arising from a (real or perceived) lack of experiece. Firms could just as easily adjust wages to compensate for this (offering lower wages to people who are being accredited or starting out, and having wages rise with experience), and we would find a private-sector solution without the added government intervention and the bloat that tends to go with it.

But oh wait, I forgot, paying new Canadians lower wages to make them competitive in the professional field would be illegal thanks to other job-killing government regulations!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon716

Who has stood up for human rights and allowed things like gay marriage to happen in Canada?

Not sure about the federal level, but in Ontario it was Jaime Watt- who was a Conservative.

yaletown_fella · #**222** Posted **Oct 5, 2011, 7:20 PM**

I don't care if the incentive program targets skilled workers. It is discrimination! Point blank period.

Again, I'm socially progressive and fiscally conservative. McGuinty is the oppisate so why am I condemned as being anti-urban Harris lover for criticizing him?

That being said I am dissapointed with Hudak's campaign and sinking to the level of these despots. I may vote for Howarth if she dosen't adjust the income tax framework (I haven't looked into the NDP yet) At least she's been honest.

Jamaican-Phoenix · #**223** Posted **Oct 5, 2011, 8:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by reidjr

Brandon716
In ottawa and area they have done some good things as well but going forward with things such as a mini hospital in orleans the lrt which ontario is paying a fair bit for a new off ramp at the scotia bank place i could go on and on but as you say they do get things done.I have to say my real big fear is if the pc or ndp were to get in alot of these projects would not happen.

Same. As much as I despise the three established parties, the Liberals deliver results and offer plans, with details of how they will be financed and implemented. Furthermore, my MPP (who is Liberal) has done a good job and he personally spoke with me about current issues and personal concerns. He's the only one of the local candidates to have done that. He's got my vote.

vid · #**224** Posted **Oct 5, 2011, 11:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wharn

Equate both denominators to 15, resulting in numerators of 5 and 9, respectively. Add numerators with common denominator. Result is 14/15. I'm a PC who grew up under Harris' education system, do I win a cookie? (Actually, my elementary school teachers never bothered telling us how to add fractions. I think we just skipped that part of the book; ended up teaching myself in middle school. Another entry in Wharn's life story.)

I learned fractions in school, and I was in school when Harris made those changes. It applied to grade 3 and under, and I was in grade 3 at the time. We hadn't learned division before the very first standardized test, so only the Asian kid got that question right.

I thought you were a lot older than that. If you learned under Harris' curriculum than you can't be more than 23.

Don't forget that Ontarians have the right to decline their ballot if they don't agree with any of their candidates. This is a more effective form of protest than not voting or spoiling your ballot.

eternallyme · #**225** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 12:28 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon716

I don't think you can compare Canadian politics with the US. The Liberals have delivered time and time again, the US Democrats can't deliver the goods. If they try and deliver the goods, they are *always* half baked anymore. Obamacare, anyone?? They almost always screw up what could be a good thing and many US Democratic politicians are on the right wing of the political spectrum... A huge amount of them in fact. The amount of right wing Liberals are few and numbered... Sure, there's a pro-business faction, but it has never controlled the party or strangled it's ability to pass legislation for the people. It just can't be compared with what is happening south of the border IMO.

McGuinty has a lot of tangible progress under his belt. Raising the minimum wage? Done. Investing in green energy and tearing down coal plants? Done. Investing in Ontario health care, modernization of records to electronic databases, hiring more nurses and doctors? Done. Implementing a very controversial, but necessary structural VAT tax change? Done.

McGuinty has proven results. The Democrats in the US... They haven't got the ability to govern because it is practically an ungovernable country with a ludicrous political system.

The results delivered by Liberal governments nationwide are why I've increasingly supported the Liberals in Canada, even if the Liberal brand has ran into problems federally. Liberals simply get stuff done that could never happen in the US. The NDP talks about progress (of which 90% of it is identical to what Liberals will do), the Conservatives destroy progress generally speaking, the Liberals have tangible progress under their belt. The choice for me has always been simple - despite some of the problems that I don't like. Do I like McGuinty's nanny laws like the repossession of vehicles that go over 50km/h over the speed limit? No. Do I like the fact that ehealth had massive waste and had to be restructured in the middle of the program? No... But if you take the collective facts into view, the Ontario Liberals have turned Ontario around from the days of Mike Harris nonsense, much like the Federal Liberals handed Harper a strong, successful Canadian government.

The proof is in the results, not the speeches or campaign rhetoric.

Instead of rhetoric or platforms, just think about the results in the past decade in Canada.

Who has stood up for human rights and allowed things like gay marriage to happen in Canada?

Who has invested in green technology and gotten Canada to try and compete on this stage?

Who is always trying to find innovative ways to make the health act work - within a budget - and be responsible about it?

Who is investing in public transit, especially in Ontario? Who filled in the holes of the original Eglinton subway??

Who has invested in other improvements, such as an entire revamp of the QEW in St Catharines and the Burlington-Oakville regions?

Who has tried to make living conditions better for the average person by pushing through North America's most progressive minimum wage standards on a province-wide basis instead of small municipal laws in only expensive cities?? Ontario is the only place in North America where a two person household can expect $41k in annual income because of it with only one direction to go... UP. Liberals have given average people the chance to advance themselves, the Conservatives would prefer to cut people's chances.

I think once you start asking basic questions, it is clear where progress is and where the others stand. It is as clear as a sky with no clouds in it. There is no comparison, and the bitching about small issues really should end and people should support progress instead of letting Ontario slip back down into a Harris-like hole.

During the Chretien era when the Liberals swept the table in Ontario, many were fairly right-leaning, especially in rural but also some suburban ridings. In the case of rural ridings, they knew they had to do that to hold off the Reform/Alliance who were normally getting about 25-35% of the vote, while in suburban ridings the Liberals were normally getting over 65% of the vote at the time so they knew the only way to power was with the Liberals. Nowadays, virtually all of them are gone since the Conservatives hold those seats, or the NDP strengthened to become an urban threat forcing the Liberals to the left in those ridings.

vid · #**226** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 12:57 AM**

Both of my city's previous Liberal MPs were actually Conservatives. Both were originally members of the Progressive Conservatives but switched affiliation to get elected. While one no longer identifies with Conservatives, the other retired as one.

Most of Ontario's federal Liberals were like that.

Dr Nevergold · #**227** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 1:11 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wharn

Not sure about the federal level, but in Ontario it was Jaime Watt- who was a Conservative.

The PC's weren't standing up for human rights back when I remember the debates 10 years ago. Maybe one person out of a group, but the group absolutely not. It would be a lie to say that a group supported something when they didn't.

The only reason Jamie Watt stood up for gay rights is because he's gay himself... A lone wolf in a movement that stood by while the opposition party supported it openly and proudly.

Dr Nevergold · #**228** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 1:19 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Both of my city's previous Liberal MPs were actually Conservatives. Both were originally members of the Progressive Conservatives but switched affiliation to get elected. While one no longer identifies with Conservatives, the other retired as one.

Most of Ontario's federal Liberals were like that.

Most were not like that... Not sure why you feel that way. I think we all understand the sensitivities that occurred back when the PC's fell and the Bloc was a force to be taken on by a unified federal party. It is easy to understand why many former PC's voted Liberal in the 90's, IMO. But it in no way makes the Liberal party a centre for right wing politics, which is a misunderstanding of history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Same. As much as I despise the three established parties, the Liberals deliver results and offer plans, with details of how they will be financed and implemented. Furthermore, my MPP (who is Liberal) has done a good job and he personally spoke with me about current issues and personal concerns. He's the only one of the local candidates to have done that. He's got my vote.

I feel much the same way. Liberals are far from perfect, many policies are not really good ideas, but collectively taken as a whole they deliver results... What I consider good results.

vid · #**229** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 1:32 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon716

But it in no way makes the Liberal party a centre for right wing politics, which is a misunderstanding of history.

They're not left wing either. And their candidates are not of uniform ideologies. Jamie Watt was a lone wolf in the Conservatives. Joe Comuzzi was not a lone wolf within the Liberals. Many people in that party voted against gay rights in 2005 and still would.

yaletown_fella · #**230** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 4:05 AM**

I'm surprised no one has quoted drivel from the hacks at the Toronto Star or NOW Magazine. But then again, I suppose I'm not sophisticated enough to appreciate the endless columns on Rob Ford's weight. :yawn:

But I'll save you the quote: Hudak is just another Mike Harris because everything the left sponsored media tells me is true.

Looks like the general consensus here is support for the natural governing party of Ontario. It dosen't matter that debt has doubled under McGuinty and that we're now midst of inevitable upgrades to the health budget (regardless of the party in power) as the boomers retire.

It's funny how I was quoted and accused of spreading "conservative propoganda" I'm no fan of Harper. I support reduced Military and Police spending and oppose his bullshit oil subsidies. In fact, I actually found Martin to be a better leader.

With the liberal and conservative control of the media it seems a socially liberal and fiscally conservative party is a pipe dream... at least in my lifetime.

Fack it, I'm voting Green

Wharn · #**231** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 3:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

I learned fractions in school, and I was in school when Harris made those changes. It applied to grade 3 and under, and I was in grade 3 at the time. We hadn't learned division before the very first standardized test, so only the Asian kid got that question right.

I thought you were a lot older than that. If you learned under Harris' curriculum than you can't be more than 23.

Grade 3? I was in Grade 7 by the time I started teaching myself how to manipulate those infernal things. The first time I heard about them in a classroom was the second week of school, when the teacher asked "I trust everyone knows how do add and subtract fractions?". Come to think of it, I can't remember how I dealt with fractions problems on the EQAO, may have just skipped them. Still managed to pass the math section though, which shows that Harris' "impossible" tests obviously weren't tough enough.

And yes, you're correct; I am indeed younger than 23.

MolsonExport · #**232** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 4:04 PM**

you young'uns.

Funny, I was quite conservative, right-leaning in my late teens and early twenties (nothing like a BComm education to indoctrinate you in the invisible hand of the market, theory of comparative advantage, business efficiency vs. government inefficiency, trickle-down and supply-side economics, etc.). My values were somewhat old-fashioned as well (catholic upbringing in Quebec). The school of hard knocks of graduating into the 90s recession (unemployment was approaching 15% in my hometown of Montreal; spending several years in poverty) gave way to different perspectives, which were honed over my next couple of decades, despite acquiring two more business school degrees (MSc and PhD).

Dr Nevergold · #**233** Posted **Oct 6, 2011, 7:32 PM**

I want to see Rocco Rossi be put in his place tonight. I want his political career ended, he's a turncoat opportunist who needs to return to the private sector and stay there.