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  #221  
Old Posted May 14, 2017, 6:38 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
he doesn't have to like Berlin.I thought it was funny, except a bit weirdly conservative (not an attitude that someone from Berlin would have even if they didn't like the city).

yes, funny and weirdly conservative was it exactly. i mean he posted something about lollapalooza in 2015. who knew??
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  #222  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 12:17 PM
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One Vanderbilt is the best supertall going up in Manhattan.
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  #223  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 4:44 PM
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One Vanderbilt is the best supertall going up in Manhattan.
This is a very good opinion for this thread.
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  #224  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jayden View Post
One Vanderbilt is the best supertall going up in Manhattan.
No arguments here. I love that project.
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  #225  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jayden View Post
One Vanderbilt is the best supertall going up in Manhattan.
Lies, Vanderbilt is hideous.

The Hudson rails site is by far the best thing Manhatten has seen in decades.
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  #226  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 7:07 PM
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Lies, Vanderbilt is hideous.

The Hudson rails site is by far the best thing Manhatten has seen in decades.
The one that requires massive subsidies? yuck
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  #227  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ChargerCarl View Post
The one that requires massive subsidies? yuck
Neither Hudson Yards nor one Vanderbilt have subsidies; they're massively subsidizing everyone else.

One Vanderbilt has to spend well over $200 million in community benefits (rail improvements, mostly) before completion. Hudson Yards air rights have resulted in billions for the MTA.
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  #228  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 7:25 PM
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Neither Hudson Yards nor one Vanderbilt have subsidies; they're massively subsidizing everyone else.

One Vanderbilt has to spend well over $200 million in community benefits (rail improvements, mostly) before completion. Hudson Yards air rights have resulted in billions for the MTA.
\http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/west-side-commercial-development-costs-taxpayers-650m-article-1.2015834
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  #229  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 7:43 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Lies, Vanderbilt is hideous.

The Hudson rails site is by far the best thing Manhatten has seen in decades.
You choose a group of fatties over the new future icon of New York? I guess.
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  #230  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jayden View Post
You choose a group of fatties over the new future icon of New York? I guess.
WAAT? Vanderbilt is the most obese supertall of all time.

Plus they destroyed precious pre-wars for it, right next to Grand Central no less. I also don't like how it overpowers the Chrysler building, big mistake.
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  #231  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 8:02 PM
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WAAT? Vanderbilt is the most obese supertall of all time.

Plus they destroyed precious pre-wars for it, right next to Grand Central no less. I also don't like how it overpowers the Chrysler building, big mistake.
Not when 30 HY exists...
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  #232  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 8:08 PM
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  #233  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 8:14 PM
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They look so deformed though..

Vanderbilt is classic New York and fits in perfectly.
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  #234  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 3:03 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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With respect to the Portland vs. Houston thing on the first page of this thread, I think everyone should read this:

http://swamplot.com/comment-of-the-d...ng/2017-04-26/

The true urban history of Houston is more complicated than "hur dur no zoning". Houston does have land use regulations in the form of permitting rules for parking, for utility hookups, etc, that actually made the area inside the 610 much less dense that it would have been. And there is a strong NIMBY element in the kind of areas where rents and land prices would favor mid or high rise developments(Montrose).Those townhouses are lovely but they aren't going to turn Houston into Brooklyn, and you would know that if you actually visited some of those neighborhoods. There's little commercial activity as those areas still aren't that dense relatively speaking. The streets lack sidewalks nevermind some have edge ditches with culverts and overhead power lines. The high rise and mid rise growth in Uptown is very insular, with exclusive mall-esque retail courtyards below condos that are just vertically stacked gated communities.

Dallas' Uptown is immediately adjacent to Downtown rather than 5 miles away. It has zoning, but it is usually permissive. Dallas has greater built density closer to downtown and more commercial activities and services AND it has the same kind of urban townhouse development as Houston does.

Portland isn't just about zoning. Due in part to harmony between grassroots activists, mayors, and state leaders, Portland actively invested money and effort into things that would make the city appealing starting in the 1970s. And just good government and public services in general. Regular people don't care about esoteric arguments over urbanism and the economics of land use, what they want is potholes filled, parks hours, police response times, communication from city hall, civic pride, etc.

Houston had suburban interests focused mayors in the 70's through the 1990's who had to govern a rather rough city with racial and class divisions and southern good old boy corruption. Houston has a lot of extremes- wealthy, powerful, conservative, but also low educated, working poor and high poverty areas. It had high crime during the national crime epidemic of that era. Texan politics usually ignores voters in favor of power brokers, the state is often an adversary not something that helps people. Area US representatives would actively seek to derail anything benefiting the city at the federal level.

There is no "we" in Texas, so an opinion like "we should have better schools/transit/police/roads/etc" doesn't go far. It's why the Houston area is a balkanized region of suburban special districts(MUD's, ESD's) so that individual neighborhoods can have their own utility and fire protection. It's why there are a lot of charter schools and many aren't any better than the public schools. "I have mine, get your own."

...

Quote:
(portland, and every other far left, white majority city).
My unpopular opinion for this thread is, so the fuck what? Why is this now an insult?

Does being majority white automatically negate the accomplishments of progressive local government?

Should harmony be thrown away in favor of the toxic cultural anxiety that displaces economic and ethics issues in political campaigns? The antisocial divided society bullshit that fucks up the southern and eastern cities? Maybe more disinvestment and decay and suburban insularity is desired over having a nice city? Maybe instead of having cool leaders who do things like fight for internet privacy, healthcare, higher ed, etc, they should elect hateful leaders who represent oil and insurance companies and cut the rich's taxes creating deficits by distracting voters with bathroom bills and illegal immigration controversies? Would that be better for you?

Are bikes white? Are trees white? Is eating healthy white? Is being well read white? What the fuck does this mean?

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urbanists have such a hard on for the northwest, but its just because the topography is pretty.
IMO Portland and the NW's best quality isn't always about urbanism, its that relatively speaking there are more people who give a shit and things are kind of nice in a boring way. Nobody is under the illusion that Portland or Seattle are anything like Boston or Philly, there is a totally different historical and economic context that means they'll never be ultra urban. So what? Instead you should be happy that cities like Portland offer some element of urbanity along with other strengths, as part of a varied civic strategy.

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mega left cities try to operate as if its a nanny state
What the hell does this mean?

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portland planning policy and our city hall is making life here miserable, favoring pedestrians and cyclists over automobiles.
Cars have a monopoly on transportation nearly everywhere, even in Portland. Honestly, if you had to slow down from 40 to 35 mph over the course of a couple blocks, how does that effect your life? I don't think it does.

I live in a college town and use back streets as shortcuts. I just learn to accept that there are students on bikes or walking in the street and deal with it. I still only need 7 minutes to get to work, as opposed to those living in newer subdivisions 10 miles away who have to get on the damn freeway and spend 30 minutes in a car.

Last edited by llamaorama; May 17, 2017 at 7:54 PM.
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  #235  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 6:30 PM
TTU Arch TTU Arch is offline
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Yeah, I get what you're saying, but it's not as if it's some "free market/give the people what they want" situation in Houston anyway. There are rules in Houston... tons of deed restrictions, certain taxing zones, lot size limits, special allowances only in "activity zones", density restrictions/allowances, etc... but it's so haphazard and non-comprehensive that it is FAR from egalitarian for everyone.

The thing is, in many cases throughout Houston, the opposite of what you claim above is true... the system does not work for all people, and people in areas without the political clout/money (and the resulting special rules), get whatever developers/land owners want to put there that will make them money, often to the detriment of neighbors and the surrounding area in a variety of ways. Wealthy Houstonians are as NIMBY as people are anywhere else.
Well put. Zoning as its called today historically was called city planning going back to ancient times. It is not an elitist approach but one that is used to protect property values, uses, attract future investments and be inclusive all residents etc. In Houston, it use to be that you could put an adult store or liquor store next to an elementary school. The city has corrected that in more recent times. Many of the surrounding burbs have zoning, while the city of Houston periodically puts zoning to a vote. You have pockets of really nice areas where the residents have gone to the city and had deed restrictions passed / enforced. You also have large areas that have seen better days.

To compare Houston to Portland is similar to comparing a car to an air plane. In Portland and Salt Lake city, both areas have set up urban growth boundaries. This was done in an effort to control sprawl, the leveling of green space, and reduce costs for maintenance and construction of new infrastructure. As a result, Portland has been working through the high land costs values as a result.

In Houston, traditionally they have built pop-up neighborhoods quickly where ever there is available land. Its odd to see some houses built right next large industrial operations, and usually those neighborhoods do not do well over time. In summary, zoning is a good thing and one that protects the equity you have in your property and other related city expenses that depend on property tax.

Someone used uptown Dallas as an example. That area's zoning was passed back in 1983 and not until the mid-late 90's did investors start building there. Today you can see much of the zoning come to fruition. It is a very walk able area of Dallas with the right mix of residential, retail and recreation. It is also one of the most vibrant areas of Dallas and in the state urban wise. While some projects have pushed the boundaries of the original plan, the zoning forces public notices to go out for the public to comment on anything that requires a zoning change. A vote is then required by the zoning board for approval.
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  #236  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
With respect to the Portland vs. Houston thing on the first page of this thread, I think everyone should read this:

http://swamplot.com/comment-of-the-d...ng/2017-04-26/

The true urban history of Houston is more complicated than "hur dur no zoning". Houston does have land use regulations in the form of permitting rules for parking, for utility hookups, etc, that actually made the area inside the 610 much less dense that it would have been. And there is a strong NIMBY element in the kind of areas where rents and land prices would favor mid or high rise developments(Montrose).Those townhouses are lovely but they aren't going to turn Houston into Brooklyn, and you would know that if you actually visited some of those neighborhoods. There's little commercial activity as those areas still aren't that dense relatively speaking. The streets lack sidewalks nevermind some have edge ditches with culverts and overhead power lines. The high rise and mid rise growth in Uptown is very insular, with exclusive mall-esque retail courtyards below condos that are just vertically stacked gated communities.

Dallas' Uptown is immediately adjacent to Downtown rather than 5 miles away. It has zoning, but it is usually permissive. Dallas has greater built density closer to downtown and more commercial activities and services AND it has the same kind of urban townhouse development as Houston does.

Portland isn't just about zoning. Due in part to harmony between grassroots activists, mayors, and state leaders, Portland actively invested money and effort into things that would make the city appealing starting in the 1970s. And just good government and public services in general. Regular people don't care about esoteric arguments over urbanism and the economics of land use, what they want is potholes filled, parks hours, police response times, communication from city hall, civic pride, etc.

Houston had suburban interests focused mayors in the 70's through the 1990's who had to govern a rather rough city with racial and class divisions and southern good old boy corruption. Houston has a lot of extremes- wealthy, powerful, conservative, but also low educated, working poor and high poverty areas. It had high crime during the national crime epidemic of that era. Texan politics usually ignores voters in favor of power brokers, the state is often an adversary not something that helps people. Area US representatives would actively seek to derail anything benefiting the city at the federal level.

There is no "we" in Texas, so an opinion like "we should have better schools/transit/police/roads/etc" doesn't go far. It's why the Houston area is a balkanized region of suburban special districts(MUD's, ESD's) so that individual neighborhoods can have their own utility and fire protection. It's why there are a lot of charter schools and many aren't any better than the public schools. "I have mine, get your own."

...



My unpopular opinion for this thread is, so the fuck what? Why is this now an insult?



Should harmony be thrown away in favor of the toxic cultural anxiety that displaces economic and ethics issues in political campaigns? The antisocial divided society bullshit that fucks up the southern and eastern cities? Maybe more disinvestment and decay and suburban insularity is desired over having a nice city? Maybe instead of having cool leaders who do things like fight for internet privacy, healthcare, higher ed, etc, they should elect hateful leaders who represent oil and insurance companies and cut the rich's taxes creating deficits by distracting voters with bathroom bills and illegal immigration controversies? Would that be better for you?

Are bikes white? Are trees white? Is eating healthy white? Is being well read white? What the fuck does this mean?



IMO Portland and the NW's best quality isn't always about urbanism, its that relatively speaking there are more people who give a shit and things are kind of nice in a boring way. Nobody is under the illusion that Portland or Seattle are anything like Boston or Philly, there is a totally different historical and economic context that means they'll never be ultra urban. So what? Instead you should be happy that cities like Portland offer some element of urbanity along with other strengths, as part of a varied civic strategy.


What the hell does this mean?



Cars have a monopoly on transportation nearly everywhere, even in Portland. Honestly, if you had to slow down from 40 to 35 mph over the course of a couple blocks, how does that effect your life? I don't think it does.

I live in a college town and use back streets as shortcuts. I just learn to accept that there are students on bikes or walking in the street and deal with it. I still only need 7 minutes to get to work, as opposed to those living in newer subdivisions 10 miles away who have to get on the damn freeway and spend 30 minutes in a car.
white majority isn't an insult, but its why cities like portland, seattle and boise are so "nice". we didn't have massive amounts of racial strife or the industrial bottom of our economies drop out. progressive politics didn't prevent these problems, lack of minorities, cultural isolation and a diversified economies did. don't think portland wouldn't have the same problems as eastern cities if all of a sudden the demographic mix was different too. it would. those are greater cultural problems that affect this entire country, regardless of location.but its also why these cities are so expensive, they draw similar, prosperous people from around the country, so socially they are very liberal, which I appreciate, but from a policy standpoint, are very illiberal. giving everybody a voice in the planning process is egalitarian and maddening and tends to bog things down. nimby culture in portland is all about ecological preservation. im on board. but the realities of population growth, and a stingy development environment are at odds with one another.

concerning our transit planning culture, we are over thinking it. giving people a choice (public trans) is good, but reworking roadways to accommodate less intensive transit choices made by the few (bikes) is stupid. I ride a bicycle 3000 miles a year but do you know how much of that is on a shared roadway with bike lanes? about 10 percent. grade separated mups and neighborhoods are all we need. not road diets on major thoroughfares. we need LESS cars, not less lanes. we need to lessen demand, not roadway supply. congestion pricing or other enticing carrots should be used to get people to the central city without their vehicle, but don't lessen the network within the city for the benefit of the few....
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Last edited by pdxtex; May 17, 2017 at 7:44 PM.
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  #237  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 7:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TTU Arch View Post
Well put. Zoning as its called today historically was called city planning going back to ancient times. It is not an elitist approach but one that is used to protect property values, uses, attract future investments and be inclusive all residents etc. In Houston, it use to be that you could put an adult store or liquor store next to an elementary school. The city has corrected that in more recent times. Many of the surrounding burbs have zoning, while the city of Houston periodically puts zoning to a vote. You have pockets of really nice areas where the residents have gone to the city and had deed restrictions passed / enforced. You also have large areas that have seen better days.

To compare Houston to Portland is similar to comparing a car to an air plane. In Portland and Salt Lake city, both areas have set up urban growth boundaries. This was done in an effort to control sprawl, the leveling of green space, and reduce costs for maintenance and construction of new infrastructure. As a result, Portland has been working through the high land costs values as a result.

l.
but it was implemented too late. the seeds of car dependent suburbia were planted 20 years before and now development is taking place outside the boundary, people have become priced out of the city and are now seeking rural homes but still commuting to the central city. at the same time, its hasn't abated the popularity of suburban living either. washington county and Clackamas county have had extremely strong growth rates since the 90s. so im not really sure what benefit its had. id almost contest the counties have more missing middle inventory than Portland city does. Portland has the density and infrastructure but its all sfh or apartments. that's changing but I don't think the ugb has been successful in improving livability. people would have made their housing choices without it anyway based on price, so its just an arbitrary line drawn around the city at this point.
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  #238  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 7:34 PM
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but it was implemented too late. the seeds of car dependent suburbia were planted 20 years before and now development is taking place outside the boundary, people have become priced out of the city and are now seeking rural homes but still commuting to the central city. at the same time, its hasn't abated the popularity of suburban living either. washington county and Clackamas county have had extremely strong growth rates since the 90s. so im not really sure what benefit its had. id almost contest the counties have more missing middle inventory than Portland city does. Portland has the density and infrastructure but its all sfh or apartments. that's changing but I don't think the ugb has been successful in improving livability. people would have made their housing choices without it anyway based on price, so its just an arbitrary line drawn around the city at this point.
Ok? Not sure what the point is to above. What you just wrote happens in every major metro area regardless of how strict or loose the zoning is and does not aid to the discussion of zoning versus no zoning.
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  #239  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 8:11 PM
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Ok? Not sure what the point is to above. What you just wrote happens in every major metro area regardless of how strict or loose the zoning is and does not aid to the discussion of zoning versus no zoning.
that's been my point from the get go. my opinion is strict zoning in portland, the ugb as a good example (hey a new unpopular opinion!!), has not increased livability or availability of varied housing choices, its made them worse. antigrowth under the guise of historic preservation or neighborhood cohesion is ultimately a roadblock to the inevitability of population growth. but,....portland's quality of life is high, but for varied and far different reasons. planning is the least consequential of them. i know planners want to think they are responsible for the high quality of life of here but its the people, not the rules that make it nice. overall, I feel cities should act less like stewards of social movements and more like utilities, providing basic services....anyway, I don't think Portland sucks and Houston is great. I think two diametrically opposing viewpoints (social engineering vs. market forces and zoning lite) have yielded similar urban densities...quality of life is subjective and only that can be ascertained by the individual...
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  #240  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 10:07 PM
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Germans as a whole generally dislike Berlin. It's not a very German city, at all, and really displays none of the typical characteristics of German cities.

And it's not resenting Berliners for wealth or power like the French with Paris or the Brits with London. Quite the opposite. It's perceived as a welfare city full of weirdos, dour ex-commies (remember half the city was East Germany) and construction boondoggles.
From my - albeit limited - experience with Berlin, this seems pretty spot on. . .

. . .
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