Community Development - Blatchford

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

And both events happened after consolidation.

So did SARS... which is no more related - the timing was just a coincidence.

[240glt]

You're seriously grasping at straws PW

Originally Posted by onishenko

So when you guys are done b*tching back and forth over points you will never convince the other of... anyone have thoughts on wording of the plebiscite and advertising 'for'?

Well they are never getting their scheduled service back, so really even if they do win it'll just be status quo, with one runway for the next decade or so anyways. Let NAIT expand and start plotting an LRT route through the land

[Policy Wonk]

The battle for Edmonton would have happened with or without consolidation, it was however dependent on WestJet existing.

And should the plebiscite pass the closed runway will be re-opened.

[240glt]

^ you don't know that

And if not Westjet, some other airline. Westjet just filled a void, that's all.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

And should the plebiscite pass the closed runway will be re-opened.

What makes you think that?

Millions of dollars have already been invested over the last year to make arrangements to close down the one runway. Instrumentation and runway lights, etc. have already been taken away.

Nobody in their right mind would vote to spend even more money to reverse all that, never mind try to put that on a ballot question.

[MalcolmTucker]

millions? really? The entire budget of the airport is less than $4 million a year.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

What makes you think that?

Millions of dollars have already been invested over the last year to make arrangements to close down the one runway. Instrumentation and runway lights, etc. have already been taken away.

Nobody in their right mind would vote to spend even more money to reverse all that, never mind try to put that on a ballot question.

They put up a temporary barricade and painted over the runway numbers in about an hour and a half. Completely reversible.

[Daveography]

I love how P.W. has completely ignored what I pointed out earlier: Edmontonians voted for consolidation in 1995. Any attempt to return/increase scheduled service to this airport is doomed to fail as a result. In fact - and with great amounts of irony - it is only because of recent attempts by the few to return scheduled service to this airport that it is now on the path to total closure. It is because Edmontonians realize that total closure is the only way this matter will ever be settled.

The most Envision Edmonton can hope to do is keep the wedge in the door a bit longer, in hopes that they can pry at it again in a few years. Most Edmontonians realize this, and even those who were neutral on the issue are now sick of hearing about it, and know that the only way it is ever going to go away is to close that door completely.

[Policy Wonk]

I never disputed that, I was there. That was not however a mandate for total closure and can't be extrapolated to how this vote might go. The only people with intense feelings on the subject appear to be here and on Connect2Edmonton and among the angry people who post comments on newspaper websites. Most people don't care about this or any other infrastructure issue.

The present path to closure is the result of Edmonton Airports lobbying which has escalated in recent years, particularly with the appointment of Anne McLellan to the Edmonton Airports board.

I would like to see YXD return to the level of service provided post-plebecite, but would also be in favor of any expansion from there.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

millions? really? The entire budget of the airport is less than $4 million a year.

With all the work done by city lawyers, consultants, and planners for the last year, I would bet it's in the millions. Not to mention the improvements (around $20 million worth) at the International Airport to accommodate businesses who choose to move there.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

They put up a temporary barricade and painted over the runway numbers in about an hour and a half. Completely reversible.

It took more than an hour and a half. They removed the ILS and all the lighting from Runway Park leading up to the City Center Airport. They've even jackhammered up the concrete the light posts were set in and laid new sod over all of it.

Yes, it's reversible, but several days worth of work has been put into planning and dismantling this equipment

[vid]

It took about a month to properly set up the ILS here last summer when the runway was being expanded. They were having all sorts of problems with it.

Technology.

[SHOFEAR]

The only people with intense feelings on the subject appear to be here and on Connect2Edmonton and among the angry people who post comments on newspaper websites

What about the hundreds of thousands who have repeatedly walked by novision signature gatherers and refused to sign. That tells you all you need to know. Between them loitering around festivals, football games, random corners I've walked by at least two dozen on them. You would have had to be living in a cave not to walk by them, anybody with the slightest pro cca feelings or anybody uneducated enough to be fooled by novision has had the opportunity...and only 1/10 of the city cared.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

What about the hundreds of thousands who have repeatedly walked by novision signature gatherers and refused to sign. That tells you all you need to know. Between them loitering around festivals, football games, random corners I've walked by at least two dozen on them. You would have had to be living in a cave not to walk by them, anybody with the slightest pro cca feelings or anybody uneducated enough to be fooled by novision has had the opportunity...and only 1/10 of the city cared.

And what about the continued advertising about the petition on local radio newscasts and local television news broadcasts spreading the message of the number of signatures to date, the number of signatures required and the locations and the issues regarding paying the workers and community centers blah blah blah...You would have to be deaf to not hear about it.

This may be why Mayor Mandel has no reason to challenge the petition because the city has already factored in the costs of the plebisite and they know that once the fear factor is removed,a plebisite might work in their favor to finally get the mandate to close the airport without any political repercussions.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I never disputed that, I was there.

You may not have disputed it, but you seem to want to contravene it when you make the following statement:

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I would like to see YXD return to the level of service provided post-plebecite, but would also be in favor of any expansion from there.

So basically you agree that the closure issue should be decided by the people (by supporting EE), but you don't think that another decision that was made by the people (consolidation of all scheduled service) should be upheld? You don't get it both ways. Either you respect the will of the people in every decision, or you don't at all.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

That was not however a mandate for total closure and can't be extrapolated to how this vote might go.

No one has claimed either of these.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The only people with intense feelings on the subject appear to be here and on Connect2Edmonton and among the angry people who post comments on newspaper websites. Most people don't care about this or any other infrastructure issue.

This is actually pretty laughable, given that for any issue or situation, it is usually only those with relatively intense feelings on the matter that are going to speak out on them. Both sides have come out pretty loudly online and in the newspapers and online comments. You cant really judge the pulse of a city by these things alone, and it's pretty clear to me that you are out of touch with what most Edmontonians care and don't care about.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The present path to closure is the result of Edmonton Airports lobbying which has escalated in recent years, particularly with the appointment of Anne McLellan to the Edmonton Airports board.

...and the pro-ECCA side accuses the pro-closure side of making up conspiracy theories...

The present round of events began just a few years ago when a certain city councillor (Tony Caterina) began loudly and publicly lobbying for expanding services at the City Centre Airport shortly after being voted in, despite the airport not being on anyone's radar (so to speak), and not being mentioned anywhere in his platform when he was running.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON

This may be why Mayor Mandel has no reason to challenge the petition because the city has already factored in the costs of the plebisite and they know that once the fear factor is removed,a plebisite might work in their favor to finally get the mandate to close the airport without any political repercussions.

Or, the plebiscite is seen as an opportunity to let a costly and potentially disastrous project die a quick death without losing face.

...and the pro-ECCA side accuses the pro-closure side of making up conspiracy theories...

The present round of events began just a few years ago when a certain city councillor (Tony Caterina) began loudly and publicly lobbying for expanding services at the City Centre Airport shortly after being voted in, despite the airport not being on anyone's radar (so to speak), and not being mentioned anywhere in his platform when he was running.

Caterina is a flake but this has been the policy of Edmonton Airports for twenty years and in recent years Anne McLellan has been the point person within Edmonton Airports on the issue. When Mandel suggested he might be open to a compromise McLellan confronted him in person. The present round in this battle began in 2005 when Edmonton Airports began a campaign of harassment against the remaining tenants at YXD after their attempts at enticing them to YEG had failed. At that time the position Edmonton Airports took to the remaining YXD operators was closure is inevitable and they would never be offered a better deal. So move to Leduc today or get thrown out on your ass tomorrow.

[Daveography]

Ah, of course, the Edmonton Airports Gestapo, led by Anne "Curbstomp" McLellan.

You do realize that the City of Edmonton owns that land, and Edmonton Airports leases and operates it. If they jointly decide to shut it down, then they are within their rights to do so.

It seems to me, even from your own wording, that every opportunity was afforded to the sublease tenants to help them relocate their operations, and they refused, and continue to refuse.

Tell me, under what law or charter or even precedent is the city or Edmonton Airports required to continue to operate the ECCA at a loss, in perpetuity for all eternity, for the sole benefit of these few people and businesses who have been given the opportunity to relocate but were too stubborn to bother, have no ownership of this land?

If the airport is so important, so vital, such a gem, has so much potential, etc., why haven't these holdouts and the groups like the AEG and EE and the money backing them all offered to buy the airport from the city and operate it themselves?

[feepa]

RTA, the airport is not for sale. Remember their whole campaign last year? Airport not for Sale? They were complaining that they couldn't buy the airport themselves!!

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by RTA

It seems to me, even from your own wording, that every opportunity was afforded to the sublease tenants to help them relocate their operations, and they refused, and continue to refuse.

They don't want assistance relocating to Leduc any more than you want assistance relocating to Calgary. Carrot, Stick or Shotgun. Those private operators who remain will never relocate to YEG. Their business is providing air service to Edmonton - not Leduc.

The outcome of the plebiscite will be the precedent that YXD operate in perpetuity - although Edmonton Airports will demand their hands be washed of it, and probably Villeneuve too at that time.

And the remaining interests at YXD would LOVE to buy the airport, but that wouldn't be allowed to happen because this is a real estate hustle.

[feepa]

oh fucking please enough with leduc. Leduc is part of the Edmonton region, same goes for the Edmonton International Airport. Flying in and out of Edmonton is done at the Edmonton International Airport. More Edmontonians fly in and out this airport then YXD could ever possibly conceive.
I doubt any proponents of keeping YXD have even tried to buy the airport, because they rely on the tax dollars of Edmontonians to support their businesses, which couldn't compete at any other airport.