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  #23921  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 1:02 AM
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ardecila ardecila is online now
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LVDW, the ARO requirements only apply when a developer is seeking a zoning change or city subsidy. If you build as-of-right, you are not required to comply with the affordable mandate.

Also, I don't think it's possible to design a system where low-income people can afford new construction unless you have some form of subsidy. New construction is expensive, especially in developed urban areas. It sounds crass to relegate poor people to old buildings, but that's the only "free market" way.

I've heard people making grand claims about how affordable housing will sprout up naturally if constraints are lifted. That's total BS. Nobody ever chooses to build affordable housing unless they have access to subsidy or they are complying with a mandate. If the supply of high-end housing grows faster than that segment of the population, then some older buildings will depreciate and become affordable over time. Call it trickle-down housing policy. Ideally the city would have a robust code enforcement to prevent safety and sanitation issues in those depreciating buildings, and landlords would invest in their buildings continuously in pursuit of slightly higher rents.
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  #23922  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 1:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Link N. Parker View Post
Yes, market rate. Developers should be able to look at a neighborhood and determine the correct rent price. Artificially suppressing the price of a housing unit actually makes things more expensive and causes other problems. If more units were brought to the market, then the prices will go down, benefiting households that have lower income. There is no reason why other cities should have cheaper rent prices than us; we have plenty of land. This isnt NYC or SF, who are constricted on three sides. We are only constricted on one side.
Makes a lot of sense to me. Housing vouchers solve this problem.
I couldn't imagine spending $300k on a condo or house only to have public housing be built across the street from it because some connected landowner got the local alderman to buy his land with TIF money to construct housing for at risk adults. Oh wait, Alderman Burnett did just that with TIF money for public housing on Lake street in the West Loop. If TIF money is going to be used for public housing, it should be built on very cheap land next to excellent public transit options. This could have been easily built anywhere in Burnett's ward, which has multiple L lines and plenty of cheap land near their L stops. But instead, it was built in the heart of the West Loop just west of the expressway that could have been prime territory for a 20+ story apartment tower. This would have generated millions in property tax dollars and a lot more money for the CHA fund where builders have to make payments when they construct no subsidized units in their building. Instead, the city gets nothing and middle and upper middle class neighbors get a whole host of at risk adults across the street.
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  #23923  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 1:28 AM
Chi-Sky21 Chi-Sky21 is offline
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Except for the fact that the building in the west loop IS right near public transport and a large building is going up right behind it. HOWEVER, i do agree that they could have gotten a lot more bang for their buck had they just moved it further west. I find there is no good answer to this, so many stories of connected people getting 1st dibs on the lower rate units then selling them soon after for large profit. Vouchers may be a better way but still very easy to scam. I am not a fan of TIFs at all so forget that. I say let them overdevelop apartments like they are doing now and then the entire market can collapse and market rate will be affordable....and the bankrupt developers can live along side everyone else!
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  #23924  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 2:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
It sounds crass to relegate poor people to old buildings
It does?

The vast majority of Chicago is relegated to older buildings. That would include me, an educated and above median income earner, and my entire socioeconomically similar milieu.

Who will see to it that I can afford new construction?

Vouchers are the only sensible answer and should be redeemed primarily for older, rehabbed apartments.

Sorry for taking this further off topic - I fully expect this conversation will get moved.
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  #23925  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 4:22 AM
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Of course. But the debate about affordable housing always presumes that we need to build more of it, when historically affordable housing came into being after existing buildings became less desirable. We have this collective horror in this country that poor people should be forced into slums, substandard unsafe housing made up of largely older buildings slowly decaying into nothing and infested with critters. Yet the very existence of building codes is intended to prevent this inhumane occurrence and keep older buildings safe for residency.
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  #23926  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
LVDW, the ARO requirements only apply when a developer is seeking a zoning change or city subsidy. If you build as-of-right, you are not required to comply with the affordable mandate.
Uhhh... except that nowadays it seems as if developers need a zoning change for pretty much everything. Want to build anything more than a 2 story townhomes? Gotta have 15 community meetings/traffic studies/Aldermanic approval. All of those meetings and studies cost developers money, but nobody cares about those "greedy" developers' costs, it's all about preserving housing for those darn oppressed poor people.

Quote:
Also, I don't think it's possible to design a system where low-income people can afford new construction unless you have some form of subsidy. New construction is expensive, especially in developed urban areas. It sounds crass to relegate poor people to old buildings, but that's the only "free market" way.

I've heard people making grand claims about how affordable housing will sprout up naturally if constraints are lifted. That's total BS. Nobody ever chooses to build affordable housing unless they have access to subsidy or they are complying with a mandate. If the supply of high-end housing grows faster than that segment of the population, then some older buildings will depreciate and become affordable over time. Call it trickle-down housing policy. Ideally the city would have a robust code enforcement to prevent safety and sanitation issues in those depreciating buildings, and landlords would invest in their buildings continuously in pursuit of slightly higher rents.
What is wrong with lower income people living in lower quality housing? Now I'm not talking about some rotted shack in West Virginia with contaminated well water and an outhouse in the rear. I'm talking about old but otherwise livable apartments with heating, electric, plumbing, and basic appliances. Somehow the liberals in our society (who never have to pay with this with their own money, btw) have the mentality that we should give the poor state of the art, best of the best amenities.

New construction should be market rate, period. Now if the new construction is built by a non-for-profit like LISC, then more power to them for providing affordable new construction housing. I actually really applaud organizations like that one.

Otherwise, Chicago has plenty of older housing inventory to house more moderate income people, and lets not forget the suburbs either.
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  #23927  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Of course. But the debate about affordable housing always presumes that we need to build more of it, when historically affordable housing came into being after existing buildings became less desirable. We have this collective horror in this country that poor people should be forced into slums, substandard unsafe housing made up of largely older buildings slowly decaying into nothing and infested with critters. Yet the very existence of building codes is intended to prevent this inhumane occurrence and keep older buildings safe for residency.
Agree with this
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  #23928  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 12:46 PM
Skyguy_7 Skyguy_7 is offline
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Riverwalk

A floating construction site.. This is going to be SO great for the city when complete.


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  #23929  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 3:10 PM
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The Target proposed at Ashland and Belmont looks like it is a casualty of the Target security breach:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/reale...lakeview-store

They put the land up for sale. Let's hope someone steps in and plops down a high-density mixed use development here, I had always hoped for something more substantial than a stand-alone box store here.
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  #23930  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 3:23 PM
Chi-Sky21 Chi-Sky21 is offline
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It would be a great spot for the new Ashland subway stop. 8)
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  #23931  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 3:39 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
The Target proposed at Ashland and Belmont looks like it is a casualty of the Target security breach:

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/reale...lakeview-store

They put the land up for sale. Let's hope someone steps in and plops down a high-density mixed use development here, I had always hoped for something more substantial than a stand-alone box store here.
I was actually happy to read this, the design and use at that location was terrible.
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  #23932  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Skyguy_7 View Post
A floating construction site.. This is going to be SO great for the city when complete.


That's funny, I was walking around there yesterday afternoon taking the exact same pictures in the exact same spots.
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  #23933  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 4:11 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
LVDW, the ARO requirements only apply when a developer is seeking a zoning change or city subsidy. If you build as-of-right, you are not required to comply with the affordable mandate.
And we all know as-of-right in Chicago is a joke. They've downzoned almost everything to an unreasonably low zoning and aldermen will take away as-of-right zoning anyhow if they don't like what you are doing.

Quote:
Also, I don't think it's possible to design a system where low-income people can afford new construction unless you have some form of subsidy. New construction is expensive, especially in developed urban areas. It sounds crass to relegate poor people to old buildings, but that's the only "free market" way.
I fail to see why low-income people should be able to afford new construction units. There is nothing wrong with the thousands of older buildings in this city aside from the building code, which I'll expound on below.

Quote:
I've heard people making grand claims about how affordable housing will sprout up naturally if constraints are lifted. That's total BS. Nobody ever chooses to build affordable housing unless they have access to subsidy or they are complying with a mandate. If the supply of high-end housing grows faster than that segment of the population, then some older buildings will depreciate and become affordable over time. Call it trickle-down housing policy. Ideally the city would have a robust code enforcement to prevent safety and sanitation issues in those depreciating buildings, and landlords would invest in their buildings continuously in pursuit of slightly higher rents.
That's the problem, Chicago's building code. The city code has a variety of features that are "make work" provisions designed to rack up hours for union tradesmen at the expense of literally every other person in the city. The fact that the city does not allow PVC stacks and requires archaic, less durable, iron is a massive waste. The fact that the city doesn't allow new materials like PEX plumbing exists again to make it more labor intensive to build here. I could list dozens of similar examples. If the city just reformed the building code and streamlined the permitting process, the costs of rehabbing older buildings here would drop substantially and all housing would become more affordable, particularly on the lower end where slumlords tend to just sit on their buildings because a renovation can't be justified by the rents.

It's a lot easier to pull new PEX plumbing through a wall than it is to rip the walls open and add expensive copper. It's a lot easier to run new, safer, PVC insulated wires through old walls than it is to bust them open and use all rigid conduit and BX wiring. You aren't even allowed to use more than 5' of BX wiring off a junction box! That's absurd overkill. Nearly every suburb around Chicago allows PVC insulated wiring, but we don't even allow more than 5' of flexible BX conduit wiring. It's a lot cheaper, easier, and more durable to use PVC pipes for a plumbing stack and you don't even have to use lead to melt the sections together, but PVC doesn't rack up enough union hours. The fact is affordable housing doesn't naturally spring up here anymore because the city has in essence outlawed it. Again, this makes the market more bifurcated. Instead of spending $40/SF to rehab and older building, you have to spend $80/SF because you have to gut all the walls and use obsolete, labor intensive, materials that are derivatives of prices commodities like copper which are in ever shorter supply rather than just pull new wiring and plumbing through them.
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  #23934  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 5:04 PM
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^ Not to mention the high risk of theft of materials such as copper.

The city allows PVC stacks, by the way, just not if the building is greater than 3 stories.
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  #23935  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 5:17 PM
Skyguy_7 Skyguy_7 is offline
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That's funny, I was walking around there yesterday afternoon taking the exact same pictures in the exact same spots.
It was a perfect day for that, plus, this project offers an excellent perch.
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  #23936  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 6:15 PM
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Does anyone know what they are doing at Wilson and Ravenswood, just north of O'Shaughnessy's? There appears to be some foundation work going on.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=1796+...12,306.98,,0,0

Last edited by Vlajos; May 9, 2014 at 6:34 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #23937  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Vlajos View Post
Does anyone know what they doing at Wilson and Ravenswood, just north of O'Shaughnessy's? There appears to be some foundation work going on.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=1796+...12,306.98,,0,0
I've been wondering this myself. Walked by the site a few times but the posted permits did not reveal any information.
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  #23938  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 6:35 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckman821 View Post
I've been wondering this myself. Walked by the site a few times but the posted permits did not reveal any information.
It sat vacant for so long and it's a decent location, so I'm very curious.
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  #23939  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Vlajos View Post
It sat vacant for so long and it's a decent location, so I'm very curious.
Just did a little digging. The property taxes are getting sent to this group:

http://www.trianondevelopment.com/home

The website has no mention of a project at this site. I would think they would need a zoning change before they could go residential, however.
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  #23940  
Old Posted May 9, 2014, 6:44 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckman821 View Post
Just did a little digging. The property taxes are getting sent to this group:

http://www.trianondevelopment.com/home

The website has no mention of a project at this site. I would think they would need a zoning change before they could go residential, however.
Thanks, obviously it's a terrible location for single family, which from their website appears to be Trianon's focus. I guess condos there might be ok.
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