The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Floppa

There is a massive island of garbage in the middle of the Pacific and you think it's fine??? You realize it ends up in the food chain and WE eat it?

And you realize that all that plastic is a direct result of an oil and gas sector that needs some place to put their output?

They call it diversification.

One of the great benefits of renewables, is that it all changes the economics of non-energy hydrocarbon outputs. The fewer refineries there are in the world, the less plastic there will be.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And you realize that all that plastic is a direct result of an oil and gas sector that needs some place to put their output?

They call it diversification.

One of the great benefits of renewables, is that it all changes the economics of non-energy hydrocarbon outputs. The fewer refineries there are in the world, the less plastic there will be.

Rubbish. Plastic will stick around because it's incredibly useful, and they're not supplied by a huge amount of hydrocarbon production anyway. Replacing it with alternatives will be worse for the environment and cost more money.

[ssiguy]

MolsonExport...............I'm sorry and admit that I was a bit harsh but when you made the analogy of fossil fuel usage with gun violence it did get my back up.

My entire point is that trying to wean ourselves off our mass usage of fossil fuels is ridiculous waste of time and a fantasy proposal that only delusional individuals like Suzuki could advocate. We will need fossil fuels for probably more than a century so we have to work with them to create a net-zero world.

When we talk about GHG emissions, the operative word is EMISSIONS. The commodity we use is completely irrelevant. Whether we use oil, sugar, nuclear, or green peppers doesn't matter as long as we can create the products and services we need in a zero emissions and non-polluting matter all the way from refining, manufacturing, and to the end product and it's usage.

This is why I get more than a little ticked off when these environmentalists endlessly bitch at big bad oil when the reality is that all they are doing is providing a product that we demand they supply us with as cheaply as humanely possible.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

My entire point is that trying to wean ourselves off our mass usage of fossil fuels is ridiculous waste of time and a fantasy proposal that only delusional individuals like Suzuki could advocate.

What? Trying to wean ourselves off fossil fuels is not at all a waste of time. It's quite literally the largest problem the world has ever faced.

You can take small actions to reduce your usage every day. Or bigger ones, like conversions to electric heat pumps, EVs, etc.

Far from "delusional".

[ssiguy]

Yes it is delusional because it's never going to happen or at least in any of our lifetimes. If our goal is to get off fossil fuels then it is doomed to failure. Fossil fuels run our world and our economies and standard of living depend on those fossil fuels. Our goal is to get rid of those emissions not the commodity itself.

Fossil fuels, by their very definition are naturally created products. If the commodity was the problem then we would have been suffering from climate change for millions of years. The ONLY reason we are suffering from our environmental emergency is that we take those products and then instead of putting them back in the ground where they belong we stick them in the air.

Mother Nature doesn't mind her kids playing with her toys as long as they put them back when they are done using them.

[WarrenC12]

You understand there's a continuum between today's usage of fossil fuels, and zero usage, right?

[CivicBlues]

JFC did David Suzuki piss in your cornflakes or something? The guy is 85 years old I don't think he's very relevant anymore or will be for much longer. I get it, you don't like non-white people telling you what to do or feel bad about your choices. How else to explain your also irrational hatred of Jagmeet Singh?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Rubbish. Plastic will stick around because it's incredibly useful, and they're not supplied by a huge amount of hydrocarbon production anyway. Replacing it with alternatives will be worse for the environment and cost more money.

Nobody is disputing that plastics will be around for a long time. I disagree that the level of demand growth is totally organic and not based on a massive push by the industry to find a market for those hydrocarbons beyond burning it for heat, power generation and mobility.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What? Trying to wean ourselves off fossil fuels is not at all a waste of time. It's quite literally the largest problem the world has ever faced.

You can take small actions to reduce your usage every day. Or bigger ones, like conversions to electric heat pumps, EVs, etc.

Far from "delusional".

Not so much delusional as irrationally bitter. He's a hydrogen fanboy (absurd as such a thing is) who is bitter that hydrogen isn't really taking off as the alternative (at least not for a lot of road and rail mobility right now), so the old canard of, "Just give up. We can't do it.". Imagine suggesting that we let the world burn because your irrational fandom of a given class of tech isn't working out.

I wish we had reminder functions on here so we could laugh at some of this stuff in 5, 10 and 20 years.

[Floppa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not so much delusional as irrationally bitter. He's a hydrogen fanboy (absurd as such a thing is) who is bitter that hydrogen isn't really taking off as the alternative (at least not for a lot of road and rail mobility right now), so the old canard of, "Just give up. We can't do it.". Imagine suggesting that we let the world burn because your irrational fandom of a given class of tech isn't working out.

I wish we had reminder functions on here so we could laugh at some of this stuff in 5, 10 and 20 years.

Hydrogen/biofuels will definitely take off as carbon taxes make fossil jet fuel untenable

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nobody is disputing that plastics will be around for a long time. I disagree that the level of demand growth is totally organic and not based on a massive push by the industry to find a market for those hydrocarbons beyond burning it for heat, power generation and mobility.

I don't see the need to resort to conspiracy theories when the simple reality of plastic being cheap and very useful explains their popularity.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Floppa

Hydrogen/biofuels will definitely take off as carbon taxes make fossil jet fuel untenable

Except we don't put carbon tax on jet fuel for the most part.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Except we don't put carbon tax on jet fuel for the most part.

I can see air travel becoming either prohibitively expensive (taxes?) or rationed unless we can convert to electric or solar. Wishful thinking?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Architype

I can see air travel becoming either prohibitively expensive (taxes?) or rationed unless we can convert to electric or solar. Wishful thinking?

I've heard some estimates of being able to produce synthetic or bio jet fuel in the order of twice the price of what it costs now. That would be expensive, but not cripplingly so. It would probably make flying about as expensive as it was maybe 30 years ago (just a guess). But there will be technological improvements to make up for it - hydrogen planes are feasible, they just have very different constraints on their construction.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I don't see the need to resort to conspiracy theories when the simple reality of plastic being cheap and very useful explains their popularity.

I don't know what is conspiratorial about it. Literally every oil exporter is trying to pivot to petrochemicals.

https://www.dw.com/en/plastic-oil-pe...rus/a-52834661

It's a half Trillion dollar bet:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...0bn-investment

They misled consumers and governments on the recyclability to keep the party going:

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/89769...ld-be-recycled

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...ig-oil-950957/

And they are actively pressuring governments to get trade deals with reduce restrictions on plastics in emerging markets:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/c...ics-trade.html

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Floppa

Hydrogen/biofuels will definitely take off as carbon taxes make fossil jet fuel untenable

Biofuels maybe. Maybe electrofuel flow batteries way down the road.
Hydrogen doesn't work for long haul aviation.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't know what is conspiratorial about it. Literally every oil exporter is trying to pivot to petrochemicals.

https://www.dw.com/en/plastic-oil-pe...rus/a-52834661

It's a half Trillion dollar bet:

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...0bn-investment

They misled consumers and governments on the recyclability to keep the party going:

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/89769...ld-be-recycled

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...ig-oil-950957/

And they are actively pressuring governments to get trade deals with reduce restrictions on plastics in emerging markets:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/c...ics-trade.html

Plastic is something like less than 10% of oil production. Sure, producers want to sell more product and will lobby for it in any which way, you could say that about any industry. But truthfully this is marginal stuff, just look around you, wherever you are everything is plastic. I don't believe the reason the keyboard I'm typing on (a very nice one) is plastic, or the monitor I'm looking at, is because of oil men twiddling their moustaches and buying drinks for politicians.

I probably sound like a plastic evangelist, but I don't even like it in packaging. Those vacuum formed hard plastic things they package stuff in are horrible, I find it much more enjoyable to open something made of cardboard. But the fact is the cardboard packaging is likely worse for the environment in every way.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Hydrogen doesn't work for long haul aviation.

Why not? As I understand it, H2 is more weight efficient but less space efficient. So it shouldn't be impossible, the shape of the planes will just have to change. But we'll see what happens, and we should be giving airlines the right incentives but it seems that air travel is one area that no governments want to put meaningful carbon taxes on.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Floppa

Hydrogen/biofuels will definitely take off as carbon taxes make fossil jet fuel untenable

Jet fuel is exempt from carbon taxes.

[Floppa]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Jet fuel is exempt from carbon taxes.

And big polluters like coal power plants pay lower than you and me! Thanks JT