Lamenting the decline of the car

[thewave46]

While I do concede that most vehicles are basically appliances, there sometimes are moments where hustling a well-developed one through winding roads (safely, of course) does have some entertainment value.

A well-damped suspension, good steering feel, firm brake pedal and good throttle response can make it fun to drive a slow car quickly on the right roads.

Alas, the Winnipeg area likely doesn't have many of those roads.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by rofina

The Rivian is fire.

If I was a little less disciplined with my finances I would order one, I really like it.

Yeah the early reviews look fantastic, I would also consider it, though as a single car family, only Tesla's charging can deliver for road trips. We'll see in a few years when the F150 and Cybertruck are out, what the landscape evolves to.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by thewave46

While I do concede that most vehicles are basically appliances, there sometimes are moments where hustling a well-developed one through winding roads (safely, of course) does have some entertainment value.

A well-damped suspension, good steering feel, firm brake pedal and good throttle response can make it fun to drive a slow car quickly on the right roads.

Oh yeah!

Originally Posted by thewave46

Alas, the Winnipeg area likely doesn't have many of those roads.

Uh, yeah.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by rofina

I wonder how many people are thinking this way.

I bought an ICE vehicle this year hoping for it to be my last new daily use ICE vehicle....

There's a term for this. The Osborne Effect. And there are folks predicting that this could happen to the auto industry and take down legacy automakers:

Originally Posted by rofina

I'm also so curious to see what happens to market dynamics with resale values on ICE cars as some of these cut off dates approach closer.

Resale values will be a function of EV supply as adoption grows. The target dates are almost irrelevant.

Originally Posted by homebucket

There's more to a car being fun to drive, than just speed.

Indeed. But EVs can offer more than just speed (or rather acceleration, I think is what you mean). Driving dynamics being software controlled means they can be made to vary substantially on any given platform, offering different driving experiences as desired. Much harder to do this in ICEVs.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Indeed. But EVs can offer more than just speed (or rather acceleration, I think is what you mean). Driving dynamics being software controlled means they can be made to vary substantially on any given platform, offering different driving experiences as desired. Much harder to do this in ICEVs.

True. And there's various electronic noises or hums that can be produced to re-produce the feeling of speed. But I think 99% of people are just going to leave their cars (EV or ICE) on comfort mode, because like other have mentioned, the vast majority of people view cars as appliances used to get them from A to B in safety and comfort. For daily driving and grand touring purposes, the EV really is the ultimate option.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Oh yeah!


Uh, yeah.

My post was sort of aimed at esquire. When the world is wide and flat and one has got over the thrill of mashing the go pedal, I could see where the appliance-like opinion comes in.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by homebucket

True. And there's various electronic noises or hums that can be produced to re-produce the feeling of speed.

Or they end up with their own characteristic sound:

• Video Link

• Video Link

Originally Posted by homebucket

But I think 99% of people are just going to leave their cars (EV or ICE) on comfort mode, because like other have mentioned, the vast majority of people view cars as appliances used to get them from A to B in safety and comfort. For daily driving and grand touring purposes, the EV really is the ultimate option.

And really that's what is needed. I don't think ICEV cars will ever go way. Just like horses never stopped being ridden. They just became hobbies of the well-off.

[urbandreamer]

I'm checking out a Chevy Spark this weekend. My thoughts: buy a really cheap basic car like the Spark which should last about 10-15 years, in a few years (2026) buy a sports car like the Subaru BRZ, then c.2035 buy an EV if I have a means to charge it - aka find an affordable home somewhere in NA.

And yeah driving is fun - I got to drive a friends VW GTI mk6 this summer through Eastern Ontario - fantastic empty twisty roads.

[SpongeG]

Lucid is here in Canada now, Vancouver has a dealership, the cheapest model starts at $105,000 and has a projected 653 km range. The dream model is $229,000 with a projected range of 836 km.

Lucid and Tesla are said to be in a race to develop a $25,000 model.


motortrend.com

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hertz rental cars has just made a large Tesla purchase

Hertz's massive Tesla order reflects confidence in electric cars
The order is one of the largest purchases of battery-powered cars in history and the latest evidence of increasing commitments to EV technology.

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/n...6-207a84e8b829

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I realize we kind of moved on from the weight discussion, but I'm curious about this. The top of the chart is only 18,000 kg, i.e. an unloaded truck. Legal max before you need a permit is 64,000. that's gotta push that factor up to like 1000 instead of 410.

Originally Posted by homebucket

There's more to a car being fun to drive, than just speed.

I'd add to this, there's more to cars being fun in general, than just driving.

I realize car enthusiasts are a small part of the market, but I think we'll see ICE cars continue indefinitely for that smaller enthusiast market.

There's just so much to dig into as a hobby. I'm a tinkerer by nature, I love buying parts for things and have been doing it since high school. I've progressed from Lego to guitars, amps, tools, brewing and draft systems, and lately cars. The process involved in rebuilding an engine, getting to choose every single component from camshafts to piston rings to head bolts, it's just something that isn't there with a sealed electronic motor.

Originally Posted by homebucket

Actually, pick up trucks are probably the one class of vehicle that would benefit most from transition to EV. They're not generally driven sportingly, most people use them as appliances, for a specific purpose and function. The EV drivetrain will offer plenty of power for towing and trailering. And the frunk will offer an additional secure storage space, something that pick up trucks natively lack without the addition of a bed cover or top.

Originally Posted by homebucket

The Rivian R1T looks pretty cool and tough to me. It can accomplish everything an F-150 can and more. And since these aren't high performance sports cars you aren't losing anything by switching to EV. I don't think people buy F-150s for their exhaust notes or handling dynamics or setting lap times.

Huh? Tons of people push performance on their trucks, including things like better flowing (and sounding) exhausts. the 90s were a crazy time for sport trucks, and that continued well into the 2000s. For a while before Ford went retro with the Mustang and Chevy brought the Camaro back, a truck was your best way to get an affordable(ish) car with big V8 power.

And it isn't gone at all, there are still companies building performance oriented trucks, not to mention all the hobbyists doing it themselves.

602 hp Callaway Silverado

800hp Yenko Silverado

Hennessey GOLIATH 650 Supercharged Silverado

The first two are 100% street oriented. The Hennessey is a bit more off-road oriented, and most other builders are too since right now desert-racing type performance is the biggest trend - the TRX being the newest OE-production epitome of that.

That being said, electric trucks have big place on (some of) the commercial side of things. Most jobsite pickups in towns and cities, I don't see a real downside to electrification. Anyone doing a significant amount of remote work or distance hauling, EV isn't quite there yet.

Of all the electric trucks, so far my favourite is the Alpha Wolf, since it comes in a regular cab

[drew]

Originally Posted by thewave46

While I do concede that most vehicles are basically appliances, there sometimes are moments where hustling a well-developed one through winding roads (safely, of course) does have some entertainment value.

A well-damped suspension, good steering feel, firm brake pedal and good throttle response can make it fun to drive a slow car quickly on the right roads.

Alas, the Winnipeg area likely doesn't have many of those roads.

It doesn't, but we get lots of fun winter driving conditions to make up for it.

Also take any boring car and equip it with a manual tranny, it instantly makes it more fun to drive.

I will be an ICE holdout simply for the transmission factor. My kids are going to learn to drive on a manual, and they are 8 and 11. There is a lot of world out there beyond NA and Europe, where it's beneficial to know how to drive with 3 pedals. Plus IMO, it forces you to be a more attentive driver.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You seem to think the rest of us don't care about vehicle weight at all. That's a bit of a strawman. We just don't happen to think it's as big a concern as all the other issues we face. If the choice is 500 lbs more on each car or 20% more emissions as a country, I'll choose the 500 lbs every time. Sometimes I wonder if this is the difference in generational perspectives, with older folks not truly believing that climate change is a pressing problem.

Again, you are guessing wrong on what I think. How could you know what I think from a few posts on a messageboard?

You have to remember that this whole weight 'discussion' came from a simple offhand comment that I made about being surprised that EVs seemed to weigh (without doing detailed a model-by-model comparison) more than their equivalent IC counterpart. My expectation was that they would be less.

Then the topic received far more attention it deserved, and I'm glad the thread has moved on from that. No strawman, really.

I'll be more careful about what I post in this thread in the future. I learned something from this discussion... the topic of EVs is a very delicate one.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Again, you are guessing wrong on what I think. How could you know what I think from a few posts on a messageboard?

You have to remember that this whole weight 'discussion' came from a simple offhand comment that I made about being surprised that EVs seemed to weigh (without doing detailed a model-by-model comparison) more than their equivalent IC counterpart. My expectation was that they would be less.

Then the topic received far more attention it deserved, and I'm glad the thread has moved on from that. No strawman, really.

I'll be more careful about what I post in this thread in the future. I learned something from this discussion... the topic of EVs is a very delicate one.

It's really all about the context. You could say that the topic of ICE cars is also very delicate. If you bring up the concepts of character and driving dynamics, you're often met with responses of, in simple terms, "who cares?". But if you think about it, they're right. 99% of the population doesn't care about shifting their own gears, or how balanced a car feels when taking a corner. In fact, they want the car to drive for them, and be as isolated from the experience of driving as much as possible. Most people strongly dislike driving, and would rather let Autopilot take over so they have more time to surf SSP.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Again, you are guessing wrong on what I think. How could you know what I think from a few posts on a messageboard?

Okay. Let's get it on record.

You have to choose between every car becoming an EV with 500 lbs more weight compared to the ICEV equivalent, or you keep the ~80 megatonnes of GHG emissions that Canada puts, from personal transport. Which would you pick?

Also, you can say this is just about your efficiency concern. But then why bring up momentum and completely ignore speed?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Okay. Let's get it on record.

You have to choose between every car becoming an EV with 500 lbs more weight compared to the ICEV equivalent, or you keep the ~80 megatonnes of GHG emissions that Canada puts, from personal transport. Which would you pick?

Also, you can say this is just about your efficiency concern. But then why bring up momentum and completely ignore speed?

Good god, can we please just let this go?

You are creating arguments that were never made.

I never said "IC good, EV bad", just said that I was surprised by how much they weighed. As others have correctly pointed out, I needed to consider that EVs are somewhat in their infancy and I'm sure the weight issue will be dealth with. In fact I'm sure I posted that somewhere.

The momentum 'talk' was in response to your saying that you are more concerned with vehicle profile (from a pedestrian perspective) than weight. I agreed but stated that weight is also a concern (again, for ALL vehicles) and used momentum as an example. Speed being a constant, i.e. all cars are traveling at approximately the same speed (don't use more than one variable in a comparison - it's basic).

So can we let this one go... please? For the record?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by homebucket

It's really all about the context. You could say that the topic of ICE cars is also very delicate. If you bring up the concepts of character and driving dynamics, you're often met with responses of, in simple terms, "who cares?". But if you think about it, they're right. 99% of the population doesn't care about shifting their own gears, or how balanced a car feels when taking a corner. In fact, they want the car to drive for them, and be as isolated from the experience of driving as much as possible. Most people strongly dislike driving, and would rather let Autopilot take over so they have more time to surf SSP.

Yeah, you're right. I should follow the idea of the 'rule' to not order a steak in a seafood restaurant.

My new one: "Don't discuss cars in a skyscraper forum"...

[urbandreamer]

The Lucid Air is an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight to Tesla's Ford Taurus: aka kind of hideous.

If I could afford a luxury vehicle, I can't think of anything better than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBQlKwZnIFA

[canucklehead2]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

The Lucid Air is an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight to Tesla's Ford Taurus: aka kind of hideous.

If I could afford a luxury vehicle, I can't think of anything better than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBQlKwZnIFA

Agreed! Then again until recently the fugly Toyota Camry was the number one car worldwide so good taste and great sales aren't always an issue. Their next model looks better! The SUV/crossover.... Not to mention the silver elephant in the room, CYBERTRUCK! 1 MILLION preordered and counting...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

The Lucid Air is an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight to Tesla's Ford Taurus: aka kind of hideous.

If I could afford a luxury vehicle, I can't think of anything better than https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBQlKwZnIFA

You can do better.

• Video Link

[homebucket]

^ Oof. That hyperscreen is going to be a collection of fingerprints in no time. The rest of the interior looks pretty cool though. And I can't say I'm a fan of the exterior design either. It has the profile of a beetle larva. I don't find the proportions to be as sleek as a Model S. More luxurious, for sure, though. Although I'm sure with Mercedes' track record, a lot of the technological features are going to malfunction in short order.

As far as compared to the the new Range Rover, I too, would rather have the Range Rover. Mercedes' first EV is going to have a lot of issues.