HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #2361  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2022, 7:51 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,806
So 177 kph is the point at which we step change to grade separated HSR.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2362  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2022, 9:32 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
So 177 kph is the point at which we step change to grade separated HSR.
I'm doubtful we could build such a line in a cost effective manner because of our NIMBY and environmental assessment issues but a new congestion free line near Highway 7 at that speed would be competitive for Ottawa to Toronto but routing Montreal via Ottawa would make that at least 4 hours so not much gain.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2363  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 1:28 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,806
At 177 kph, I figure Toronto-Ottawa ~ 3 hrs and Ottawa-Montreal ~ 1.5 hrs. That would still be competitive with driving (and flying for YTZ-YOW).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2364  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 1:46 AM
VANRIDERFAN's Avatar
VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Regina
Posts: 5,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
At 177 kph, I figure Toronto-Ottawa ~ 3 hrs and Ottawa-Montreal ~ 1.5 hrs. That would still be competitive with driving (and flying for YTZ-YOW).
I'd take that over driving or taking a plane. I once visited some family in Brampton and decided to go on a Sunday morning from Ottawa. I figured the traffic on the 401 wouldn't be too bad. Boy was I wrong. I couldn't find the offramp to the toll road fast enough once I turned onto the 401.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2365  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 2:28 AM
Urban_Sky Urban_Sky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Montreal
Posts: 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
I'm doubtful we could build such a line in a cost effective manner because of our NIMBY and environmental assessment issues but a new congestion free line near Highway 7 at that speed would be competitive for Ottawa to Toronto but routing Montreal via Ottawa would make that at least 4 hours so not much gain.
Last time I took the train from Toronto to Montreal, the trip was scheduled to take 5:11 hours and the train actually arrived in Montreal only after 5:54 hours, which is not that untypical in my experience.

Why would 4 hours be "not much gain"?


Also, to add some perspective: Hamburg (Germany's second largest city) and Prague (Czechia's capital and one of Europe's most popular tourist destinations) are 492 km apart from each other (measured as a straight line from their respective downtown rail hubs), which is 12 km shorter than Toronto-Montreal (504 km) and also has Berlin (i.e. a capital city slightly more important than Ottawa) en-route.

Do you want to take a wild guess of what the fastest travel time is between both cities before you click the spoiler?

(They are served by comfortable EuroCity trains traveling every 2 hours)

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2366  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 6:17 AM
GoTrans GoTrans is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
Why would 4 hours be "not much gain"?
When the Turbo first ran it was slightly over 4 hours and that didn’t make a big difference in ridership because there weren’t enough frequencies at that speed and the trains were still subject to poor track and freight interference. The hfr route should at least provide reliable frequencies and timings.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2367  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 2:15 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,939
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
Last time I took the train from Toronto to Montreal, the trip was scheduled to take 5:11 hours and the train actually arrived in Montreal only after 5:54 hours, which is not that untypical in my experience.

Why would 4 hours be "not much gain"?


Also, to add some perspective: Hamburg (Germany's second largest city) and Prague (Czechia's capital and one of Europe's most popular tourist destinations) are 492 km apart from each other (measured as a straight line from their respective downtown rail hubs), which is 12 km shorter than Toronto-Montreal (504 km) and also has Berlin (i.e. a capital city slightly more important than Ottawa) en-route.

Do you want to take a wild guess of what the fastest travel time is between both cities before you click the spoiler?

(They are served by comfortable EuroCity trains traveling every 2 hours)

My guess was almost dead on.

I took the train between Prague and Berlin in 2015 and it was no faster than VIA between Prague and Dresden. There was a section between Dresden and Berlin that had been upgraded and the train ran at a good clip, but the overall trip was not fast.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2368  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 2:31 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
My guess was almost dead on.

I took the train between Prague and Berlin in 2015 and it was no faster than VIA between Prague and Dresden. There was a section between Dresden and Berlin that had been upgraded and the train ran at a good clip, but the overall trip was not fast.
It wasn't built from scratch though with another option an hour longer.

Tallinn to Vilnius is under construction same distance as MTL to TO via Ottawa and will be 3.5 hours. All new infrastructure for $6B.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2369  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 4:51 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 1,965
A few comments/questions:

With a VIA controlled corridor between Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal, VIA will be able to run reliable schedules. Right now, VIA trains must make way for freight trains. This, apparently, can’t be included into VIA’s schedules, resulting in a lot of VIA’s trains sitting on sidings for unscheduled delays. My sister took the train from Vancouver to Ottawa, and got in a day and a half late. My wife took VIA from Kingston to Ottawa, and arrived an hour late. I was lucky. I was only ½ an hour late coming to Ottawa from Toronto.

Without control of the train schedules, VIA does not earn people’s confidence. VIA needs to have its own corridor to be able to properly schedule its trains.

The maximum speed of 177kph is only at the crossings, is it not? Are there places along the proposed HFR corridor that would be long enough, between crossings, to allow faster speeds?

I think that VIA’s estimate of $4B was deliberately low, in hopes that something – anything – could be approved. Once the corridor was approved, the $4B would be stretched to provide as much as possible, both in terms of frequency and speed. There was no expectation, to my mind, that such a small sum would provide the ultimate configuration. I believe that getting the ball rolling was their goal; with upgrades to be done incrementally.

If a relatively low-speed HFR was to be built, would it make the corridor too busy to be upgraded? For example, if grade separation was needed to improve speed, could the HFR trains still run while that construction took place in the corridor? Or would it be like the Trillium Line and require a complete shutdown of HFR for the upgrades? If so, then there will be little incentive to upgrade the corridor if HFR is popular (and busy generating revenue for VIA). If possible, it might be better to put the HFR tracks along the side of the RoW, assuming that there could then be room for construction of upgrades.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2370  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 6:47 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 16,201
You have to wonder why they didn’t cancel trains yesterday. It is great that firefighters were eventually able to rescue passengers, but Via’s recklessness put a lot of passengers and emergency workers in danger.

https://www.cp24.com/news/stressed-b...torm-1.6208176
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2371  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 7:14 PM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
A few comments/questions:

With a VIA controlled corridor between Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal, VIA will be able to run reliable schedules. Right now, VIA trains must make way for freight trains. This, apparently, can’t be included into VIA’s schedules, resulting in a lot of VIA’s trains sitting on sidings for unscheduled delays. My sister took the train from Vancouver to Ottawa, and got in a day and a half late. My wife took VIA from Kingston to Ottawa, and arrived an hour late. I was lucky. I was only ½ an hour late coming to Ottawa from Toronto.

Without control of the train schedules, VIA does not earn people’s confidence. VIA needs to have its own corridor to be able to properly schedule its trains.

The maximum speed of 177kph is only at the crossings, is it not? Are there places along the proposed HFR corridor that would be long enough, between crossings, to allow faster speeds?

I think that VIA’s estimate of $4B was deliberately low, in hopes that something – anything – could be approved. Once the corridor was approved, the $4B would be stretched to provide as much as possible, both in terms of frequency and speed. There was no expectation, to my mind, that such a small sum would provide the ultimate configuration. I believe that getting the ball rolling was their goal; with upgrades to be done incrementally.

If a relatively low-speed HFR was to be built, would it make the corridor too busy to be upgraded? For example, if grade separation was needed to improve speed, could the HFR trains still run while that construction took place in the corridor? Or would it be like the Trillium Line and require a complete shutdown of HFR for the upgrades? If so, then there will be little incentive to upgrade the corridor if HFR is popular (and busy generating revenue for VIA). If possible, it might be better to put the HFR tracks along the side of the RoW, assuming that there could then be room for construction of upgrades.
When looking at the proposed new HFR route it looks like there's at minimum a level crossing every few km, sometimes a lot more than that. So I'd guess there aren't too many areas the train could get above 177km/h without having to slow down again very shortly. Not to mention how many small towns the line runs through - since they were built along the line - and you'd have bypass or slow down a lot for each of those as well.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2372  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 7:42 PM
Djeffery Djeffery is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: London
Posts: 4,686
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
You have to wonder why they didn’t cancel trains yesterday. It is great that firefighters were eventually able to rescue passengers, but Via’s recklessness put a lot of passengers and emergency workers in danger.

https://www.cp24.com/news/stressed-b...torm-1.6208176
One of my daughter's friends was on a train to Ottawa from Toronto last night and wasn't even to Kington the last she heard at around 8 this morning. I'm glad my daughter came home earlier in the week.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2373  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2022, 8:23 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 16,201
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtecyo View Post
When looking at the proposed new HFR route it looks like there's at minimum a level crossing every few km, sometimes a lot more than that. So I'd guess there aren't too many areas the train could get above 177km/h without having to slow down again very shortly. Not to mention how many small towns the line runs through - since they were built along the line - and you'd have bypass or slow down a lot for each of those as well.
A lot of these are little gravel concession roads in non-agricultural areas. I think it is a reasonable question whether all of them need to stay open. When the province builds a new highway they don’t build overpasses for every concession road.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2374  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2022, 5:34 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
You have to wonder why they didn’t cancel trains yesterday. It is great that firefighters were eventually able to rescue passengers, but Via’s recklessness put a lot of passengers and emergency workers in danger.

https://www.cp24.com/news/stressed-b...torm-1.6208176
Trains are arguably the safest mode of travel in inclement weather. Having a tree falling on the locomotive is a rather freak accident and not a significant enough of a risk to warrant proactively cancelling all trains. It is more of an indication of poor maintenance by the host railway, CN.

Now VIA’s response to the incident is abysmal, and corrective action certainly is necessary. Having said that, given the shoestring budget VIA has been given for decades, it shouldn’t be surprising.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2375  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2022, 6:11 PM
rocketphish's Avatar
rocketphish rocketphish is offline
Planet Ottawa and beyond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Greater Ottawa
Posts: 12,532
Travellers frustrated by more Via Rail cancellations after derailment, winter storm

Marsha McLeod, Globe and Mail
December 26, 2022


Via Rail passengers vented frustration about cancelled trips along the carrier’s Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal routes, as a freight-train derailment and a messy winter storm upended their holiday plans for a third day in a row.

All trains along those high-frequency routes were cancelled on Christmas and Boxing Day, a result of a Canadian National Railway Co. train coming off the tracks near Grafton, Ont., on Dec. 24. Some Via trains were also cancelled that day.

CN, which transports freight, owns a majority of the track between Montreal and Toronto. Its crews are handling the cleanup.

The problems had started a day before the derailment, on Dec. 23, when a number of Via Rail trains ran into weather-related delays, including one train that took 23 hours to travel from Toronto to Ottawa – a route that would normally take about four and a half.

On Monday afternoon, Via spokesman Philippe Cannon confirmed to The Globe and Mail that all trains scheduled for Tuesday are set to run, but on a modified schedule.

More than half a dozen Via travellers who spoke to The Globe expressed frustration over the Crown corporation’s handling of the cancellations.

They characterized Via’s communications as last-minute, vague, confusing and at times non-existent. Several said the lack of clarity led them to make other travel plans so they could avoid being stranded without medication or away from pets. Others wondered why Via does not have a protocol for automatically rebooking travellers on the next available trip, as is common among airlines.

Christine Szymanski, who lives in Toronto, was visiting family in Montreal when she found out, on Sunday evening, that her Monday train was cancelled. With no indication of when trains might resume, and with only enough medication to last an extra day, she booked a flight home to Toronto for $500.

“I’m going to get home, but it’s costing me a fortune. I’m on a pension. So I don’t have $500 to throw around like this,” Ms. Szymanski said.

She said the cancellation e-mail included information about getting a refund, but no help with rebooking. “There’s nothing. It’s just, ‘Your train’s canceled, good luck,’” she said.

Siba Sabour, who lives in Ottawa, had planned to fly to Michigan to spend Christmas with her fiancé and his family. But her flight was cancelled because of bad weather.

She booked a Dec. 24 Via train to Windsor, but it was cancelled while she was lining up to board. After waiting an hour on the phone to speak to a Via representative, she was rebooked for Christmas Day. But that train was cancelled that evening. Her third booking, for Boxing Day, was cancelled with a similar amount of notice.

“The weather’s not their fault,” she said. “But them waiting every day to 7 or 8 p.m. to let everyone know about the next day’s trains, everyone’s getting their hopes up.”

“Christmas is gone. And we don’t have all the time in the world. You know, we have jobs to get to after,” she added. She has managed to rebook for Dec. 28.

Stephanie Magistrado, a first-year political-science student at the University of Ottawa, was also planning to travel southwest on Dec. 24 to a family gathering, but her train was cancelled just before boarding. A second booking, made for Christmas Day, was also swiftly cancelled.

She spent five hours on hold with Via on Christmas Eve but didn’t get through. When she finally did, on Christmas morning, she secured a spot for Dec 27.

“I kind of don’t want to take the train ever again,” she said, remarking on Via’s last-minute communication.

On Monday, Mr. Cannon, the Via Rail spokesperson, said travellers on Dec. 27 should expect congestion on the affected routes, including the possibility of “significant delays.”

He said all passengers whose trains were cancelled between Dec. 24 and 26 will automatically receive refunds. But he added that they need to contact Via if they want refunds for connecting legs or return trips.

Via did not respond to The Globe’s questions about travellers’ criticisms.

Jonathan Abecassis, a CN spokesperson, said the company’s crews had been working “tirelessly,” with the goal of having one of two sets of tracks reopened by Monday evening.

Willem Klumpenhouwer, a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Toronto’s Transit Analytics Lab who studies public transit and rail transportation, said Canada’s “very sparse” rail network means routing trains around a derailment is generally not feasible. The situation this past weekend highlights the network’s lack of resilience, he added.

He noted that CN and Canadian Pacific Railway, both of them private freight carriers, own the vast majority of rail track in Canada, which a company like Via would use essentially as a guest.

“CN is a company that’s interested in moving freight, and they will design their network for freight,” he said. “It may not be designed to be as resilient as you might want for a passenger rail network.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...ntreal-delays/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2376  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2022, 8:27 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,517
Good arguments for VIA to own their own track.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2377  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2022, 8:34 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,939
To be fair, many highways were also closed at the same time. I am not sure about flights, but the weather conditions were exceptionally bad and conditions for travelling beyond an urban area were terrible.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2378  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2022, 12:07 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 16,201
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Trains are arguably the safest mode of travel in inclement weather. Having a tree falling on the locomotive is a rather freak accident and not a significant enough of a risk to warrant proactively cancelling all trains. It is more of an indication of poor maintenance by the host railway, CN.

Now VIA’s response to the incident is abysmal, and corrective action certainly is necessary. Having said that, given the shoestring budget VIA has been given for decades, it shouldn’t be surprising.
Trains are ok if snow is the only issue. In other types of weather they are not particularly resilient. The fallen train delayed one of the trains. 8 others did not have fallen trees. Also, it was made clear in forecasts for days that record winds could be expected, so a fallen tree was not unexpected (and from the photos it looked like it fell on a train that was already stopped, but I can’t tell for sure).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2379  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2022, 12:37 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Trains are ok if snow is the only issue. In other types of weather they are not particularly resilient. The fallen train delayed one of the trains. 8 others did not have fallen trees. Also, it was made clear in forecasts for days that record winds could be expected, so a fallen tree was not unexpected (and from the photos it looked like it fell on a train that was already stopped, but I can’t tell for sure).
A tree only fell on one train, but the other trains were stopped by debris (including fallen trees) that had fallen across the tracks.

Trains come to a stop all the time one their way along the corridor. It's unlikely that some other weather-related factor had disabled the train before a tree fell on it, if that's what you're implying.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2380  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2022, 1:04 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Trains are ok if snow is the only issue. In other types of weather they are not particularly resilient. The fallen train delayed one of the trains. 8 others did not have fallen trees. Also, it was made clear in forecasts for days that record winds could be expected, so a fallen tree was not unexpected (and from the photos it looked like it fell on a train that was already stopped, but I can’t tell for sure).
From the reports I read, it was in motion (though it may have been traveling slowly). The tree fell on the locomotive, broke the window in the cab, ripped the horn off, and ended up on the second coach when train came to a stop.

Yes other trains were behind schedule, but that’s to be expected. The issue was the length of time this train was stuck without any support from VIA, even though the toilets weren’t working and there were several diabetics on board who didn’t have enough insulin. The crew onboard were not allowed to call EMS, so several passengers called 911. Once called, they were easily able to get to the train as the tracks were in a residential neighbourhood.

VIA’s plan was to send a rescue train, but it failed because it’s crew’s hours expired and regulations prohibited them from continuing to work until they had 12 hours rest and VIA didn’t seem to have a plan B.

Last edited by roger1818; Dec 28, 2022 at 1:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:12 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.